Revelations from 4gamer

[Tensaihime]

But whether Thordan had the Echo changes his character. Did he temper himself a la Yotsuyu, or was he truly that self-deluded?

My money’s on super-self-deluded, and then tempered anyhow, like Fenral said. The absolute ruler of both church and state, who thought he was going to put down some Ascians after he finished using what they showed him to be the one to end 1000 years of holy war.

[RicaRuin]

I kinda feel bad for parading Demi-Bahamut around Paghlt'an. But hey, my hunch of why Summoners can summon Phoenix was correct!

Also, interesting to read that Garlemald only now develops printing presses, with how advanced their military is, the reverse engineered Allagan stuff - and especially after the Benchmark with the modern highway and the cars.

[Fenral]

I slept on it, and was trying to come up with a more eloquent response to that question, but all I could come up with was "Tupsi Did It Again." Loui's intent to self-terminate is rather different from the Shiva and Thordan cases, so it's entirely plausible (to me) that if you summon the primal essence of going out in a blaze of glory, that's probably going to be the end result, sooner or later.

[JeanneOrnitier]

The thing with Phoenix and corrupted crystals confuses me. I thought corrupted crystals were the result of aether being released where pieces of Dalamud impacted?

[Anonymoose]

The one I like to think about, and also have to remind myself exists, is Enkidu.

Am I a bad loremonger for never even thinking about this one? I always loop back around to, "Hildibrand is only is canon as you want it to be. They know it doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense. It's the rule-breaking comedy bubble every Final Fantasy has to some degree." Maybe I could invent headcanons that might make it work, but then again I have no drive to. Enkidu just is... <broad hand gesture, never finishes thought>

Though the in-joke about the duke's precious vase that like 5 people will understand is one of the best parts of this game, hands down.

The thing with Phoenix and corrupted crystals confuses me. I thought corrupted crystals were the result of aether being released where pieces of Dalamud impacted?

That's what I thought was explicitly blamed, too, but h*ck, never mind Dalamud, those crystals first showed up with ATOMOS back in 1.0. - remember them over-aspected the aetherytes and left crystals and clusters hanging around?

I'm sure that, if pressed, Oda-san would probably clarify something like ... over-aspected crystals are usually orange, anyway, and some that we've seen before are not directly a result of Phoenix, but were localized disruptions of an aetherial stream ... yet many that we see in the game as part of a large-scale disruption of the realm are what he was referring to, here... lol.

What impressed me is that he said it so convincingly, and so confidently, that I didn't even think to question it and remember Atomos for an entire day. He intended-all-along'd me. Cynical, jaded old ME.

That's why he's our lore god, I guess.

[Vyrerus]

Am I a bad loremonger?

Well, no, you're a loveable loremonger! I mean, much like a fishmonger, you can't catch all of the fish in your net/sell of all them at your stall. Some Lore will be left unexplored by even the best loremonger, because they don't necessarily use every type of net...

*Musters my best Emperor Palpatine dialogue in the second Death Star throne room impression*
I'm afraid though, Moose, that Hildibrand is quite canonical. You see... the Blue Magic spell #35 is the spell, "Missile." Though it is said to be, ,"A magical imitation of a warmachina technology..." it is only learnable from Enkidu for the Warrior of Light aka Azuro the Second. Blue Magic is canon, because the Whalaqee are canon as is the New World.

Combine this with the fact that after we beat Gilgamesh in the Battle of the Big Keep, he takes on the mantle of Yojimbo in the Far East. This is unknown to us until the Stormblood events leading up to Kugane Ohashi, but it is true, nonetheless. The events of Kugane Castle are canon, are they not, as they exist outside of the comedy bubble entirely. In order for him to be driven there, he has to be beaten in the 2.5 Hildibrand line (though it is true you can unlock Kugane Castle without doing Hildibrand, but time bubble shenanigans).

But wait, there's more!

Consider Inspector Briardien. He is introduced under the auspices of the Hildibrand questline, but he's given his own, very real, splinter cell wherein he recognizes you from the Hildibrand questline. The Scholasticate questline in Ishgard! In the course of this, he makes mention of the Sil'dih sister he's in love with imprisoned at the end of ARR Hildibrand.

Anyway... *waves my hands too for Enkidu* Enkidu is most similar in summoning to Thordan, as I'm taking it, Thordan VII Ye Olde Pope, summoned him, himself, right? I mean, he used the faith of every Ishgardian, and drew the Primal into his own being, so they don't share that aspect... but it would seem that any individual given enough resources can perform a summoning if they know the means. Tsukuyomi also follows this trend(Shiva too), though obviously what sets Enkidu apart is that Gilgamesh summoned her accidentally!

Now that I think about it... Odin is wildly similar to Tsukuyomi as well, given that all that needs happen is someone takes up Zantetsuken. Could it be that one of the weapons Gilgamesh has collected over the years allows him to summon primals by his lonesome, or is he some sort of flamboyant, itinerant ancient unsundered due to always being on the go, mostly via The Rift? We may never know, but I could speculate all day. I'm a speculationmonger!

[Anonymoose]

I'm afraid though, Moose, that Hildibrand is quite canonical. <charcuterie board of various forms of evidence, ranging from conflating game mechanics and story to a well-organized bulletin board covered in conspiracy string>

Rebuttal

Gamer Escape: Exactly how canon is the Hildibrand storyline? Godbert is on the real, actual Syndicate, but much of the storyline is clearly exaggerated, if not out-right one-directionally canon. Even the NPCs claim some things make no sense.

KF: And those of us working on those quests might think, but this doesn’t make any sense! Oda-san would like to say that it’s up to the reader how much sense they want to make of it and how they want to look at it.

Somehow after all these years I'm still fond of the "one-way bubble" interpretation. ("If it happens outside of a Manderville Bubble, it's still true inside of it, but whatever happens inside of it has to be taken with a boulder of Ishgardian licking salt.")

[Vyrerus]

Rebuttal

Moose gestures towards, "Old Faithful." In this sense, Old Faithful is a common interview dodge used by any creator as a way to avoid disturbing a fan base, but moreso used to evade having to think about something they could not devote man hours to in their work setting.

Retort

There's nothing that happens within the Hildibrand questlines that is truly so remarkably absurd that it could not happen given the rules of the FFXIV world. Point to any portion of Hildibrand, and I will point to another quest outside of Hildibrand and give lie to the idea that we must needs dismiss Hildibrand to some wavering bubble that might sunder the more serious game from its lighthearted side. After all, NPCs also remark in the course of the MSQ that some things beggar belief or that they are in an area that defies comprehension.

[WhiteArchmage]

Objection!

...I was not given time to procure popcorn...

While there are certainly things in the Hildibrand questline that do raise eyebrows, particularly Godbert pulling what is essentially a crafter LB3. One could strip the more absurd elements and the world-building elements from within wouldn't be out of place in the world of Hydaelin.

Of course, this does fit into the "as canon as you want it to be" aspect. Perhaps even presenting that the events are canon and the story-telling is embellished by the "narrator", who could indeed be Hildibrand.

[RyuDragnier]

Of course, this does fit into the "as canon as you want it to be" aspect. Perhaps even presenting that the events are canon and the story-telling is embellished by the "narrator", who could indeed be Hildibrand.

Actually, I think the Narrator is Nashu. Remember, she's incredibly scatterbrained and the ONLY character to constantly break out of the "credits" for a Hildebrand episode and talk to the player. Something that probably hints to her being incredibly eccentric. If you look at it like that, then a lot of the over the top stuff is unlikely, but the base of it is possible.

Examples, Godbert throwing Hildibrand up to get the ring but missing completely and being thrown out of the coliseum and landing completely elsewhere in Ul'dah is unlikely. However, him being tossed up, missing the ring, and crashing near the audience is very likely, and out of Nashu's vision so she'd think of the insane scenario. Julyan Manderville curing Hildibrand with bad cooking is unlikely. However, her being a skilled Alchemist, which is a different kind of cooking, and then curing him with the horrible tasting concoction, is completely plausible.