WARs and DRKs

[Marxam]

You'll notice I didn't count Inner Chaos or Chaotic Cyclone into the things gained, and that's because they're literally Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast with slightly larger animations and slightly different sound effects. I can't confirm it, but any time I am synced below having Fell Cleave and Decimate, I swear that Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone were also nerfed in animation/sound effect to feel dimmer too. That's probably a psychological thing at play, but quite literally to me it's like they purposely threw something on WAR to make the paint peel, then painted over it with the exact same old paint but labeled the colors as something new.

The sounds iirc for FC was nerfed in in SB but not a big deal since I always have sfx pretty low, or listening to other music. Like I said, WAR and DRK feel like half steps but WAR has been consistent which is good or bad depending on your view. WAR was always the self heal, build up gauge via gcds, burst tank and its design was fixed after 2.1, only to being perfected in 3.0. All these radical changes to DRK just tells me that the devs aren't sure what they want to do with the job. WAR comes off as confident in its design and whether you played in 2.0 or 5.0 you will always know that if you hit something with big damage, you will get a big heal in return. It why even though the tool kit got reworked WAR still more or less functions the same as before, just with less damage due to Berserk nerfs. Doesn't matter how much skills are lost if the core design retained.

I feel like DRK is a prisoner of the game design, constantly changing with each expansion as the devs rework how the game plays and remove things like TP. 3.0 DRK was designed as a magical tank to complement PLD, who was the physical tank (couldn't block magic in 3.0). 4.0 DRK was the resource management tank, since PLD can now block and WAR was getting nerfed. It had a mix of fast gameplay (too fast for some players) and burst while managing MP and TP. 5.0 DRK seems to want to be the shield tank with how strong TBN is. I think this a good start but the devs need to stop radically changing this job.

Also, you forgot WAR SiO used to be able to remove debuffs like Doom from Exdeath. Problem is game design has shifted so this skill can be either overpowered (removing all debuffs) or underwhelming (very niche use), sadly its the latter. SiO would have been great in 2.0 or 3.0 when Berserk had pacification but since that was removed in 4.0 it was reworked to what we have now, which was a good call imo to have a party utility rather than rework the entire game around this one skill.

[Lyth]

Both DRK and WAR have changed significantly around making the jobs more accessible and easier to play.

In WAR's case, the central focus in from 3.0 to 4.2 was around building up towards and setting up for your big burst window. The critical change in 4.2 was in changing IR from halving gauge costs to making them costless. Instead of having to build up resources towards your burst, your burst window just happened whenever things come off cooldown. That's where a lot of the WAR ennui comes from. The big damage just happens at set intervals, and you no longer get to do anything in the interim to actually earn it. I'd say that even the earlier change of removing the gauge cost from IR was one more thing that undermined WAR's dwindling resource management. You no longer were slowly building up towards getting angry. It just happens at fixed timers regardless of what you do.

5.0 didn't actually change anything up significantly, but it did move WAR from being overpowered and boring to mediocre and boring. The underlying weakness was there from 4.2. If you want to fix WAR, you really need to revisit how they build up towards their IR window over the rest of their rotation. The problem is that most players only focus in what makes them more powerful, not in what challenges them and keeps them entertained for the long haul.

DRK's problems in Stormblood came out of players struggling with Darkside and MP management. Using Dark Arts as a replacement for Darkside's life drain was a really bad idea that's been thankfully fixed. The magic tank/physical tank was never a worthwhile niche; WAR was just better at both. TBN is a really fantastic ability to build a theme around, and they just need to commit harder to it. Overall things are moving in the right direction, but we just need changes to happen more quickly (i.e. not once every two years).

[Beddict]

In WAR's case, the central focus in from 3.0 to 4.2 was around building up towards and setting up for your big burst window. The critical change in 4.2 was in changing IR from halving gauge costs to making them costless. Instead of having to build up resources towards your burst, your burst window just happened whenever things come off cooldown. That's where a lot of the WAR ennui comes from. The big damage just happens at set intervals, and you no longer get to do anything in the interim to actually earn it. I'd say that even the earlier change of removing the gauge cost from IR was one more thing that undermined WAR's dwindling resource management. You no longer were slowly building up towards getting angry. It just happens at fixed timers regardless of what you do.

Hilariously, I think WAR is at it's best in the 64 to 69 range right now because that's when I have the most fun setting up it's burst. Starting Berserk with exactly 100 Beast Gauge while your combo is at Storm's Path lets you Fell Cleave (Upheaval) - Storm's Path (Infuriate) - Fell Cleave (Infuriate) - Fell Cleave - Fell Cleave. Working towards that 100 Beast Gauge without overcapping to make sure I get as many Fell Cleaves and an Upheaval in Berserk is fun. But then I hit level 70+, Berserk turns into Inner Release, and I just shut my brain off because Beast Gauge management for my burst means absolutely nothing. It's just weird to me that the complexity of WAR goes out the window as I level it up while other Jobs are getting new and more interesting things added to their kits.

[Jbaud]

the quest is supposed to be available at lvl 30 but you can not get to the quest giver till lvl 50. What am I doing wrong?

[RinaB]

Dont talk about drk on the forums. You'll get HWS fans or DA spam boys. Yes it sucks they're similar but there is a big difference between pushing buttons and pushing the right buttons.

[shao32]

the quest is supposed to be available at lvl 30 but you can not get to the quest giver till lvl 50. What am I doing wrong?

You are doing nothing wrong is a quest design problem that affect DRK, AST and MCH saddly, DRK quest is aviable at level 30 but the zone where is located is Ishgard wich is only accesible after complete ARR at level 50, complete the story until you reach Ishgard and you Will have full access to the job.

[TheRealQuah]

Dont talk about drk on the forums. You'll get HWS fans or DA spam boys. Yes it sucks they're similar but there is a big difference between pushing buttons and pushing the right buttons.

A recent poll on reddit showed that DRK is currently the most popular tank, and second most popular job overall after RDM. I noticed none of the tiny vocal minority of DRK haters brought this up anywhere.

[Lyth]

If nobody was interested in DRK, then nobody would post about it. People are vocal about popular jobs, not unpopular ones.

I think a lot of people are drawn to DRK's aesthetics. That's not surprising, given that a disproportionately large portion of main characters in FF games use greatswords, and DRK has a lot of its own signature flair. I think that any time you add series nostalgia to a job (like MCH and Air Anchor/Drill/Bio Blaster/Auto-crossbow), players become more excited to play it (now where is the likes of Dolphin Kick and Omnislash?)

You can like a job's aesthetics and not like the direction that it's been taken in. Players are going to be more opinionated about DRK because it carries so much series heritage. What if you felt that DRK should play like its FFT variant, with a heavy resource leeching focus? What if you felt that DRK should manipulate its total HP to do more damage? Not everything is going to be practically possible, but these prior experiences influence what people want to see.

You can also like a job's aesthetics and direction and not enjoy certain elements of its execution. Living Dead is awful. I know that everyone has different tastes, and I'm sure that there is probably someone out there who doesn't even play the job and holds a different view, but this is not a matter of taste. It's just flat out bad design. You can also dislike how Blood Weapon is so finicky and timer based when it would benefit from a stack system. You can want Delirium to offer something different other than being an objectively weaker copy of Inner Release. You can want Living Shadow to do something interactive with the rest of your kit (why does it have its own UI element to track it's timer?) You can want all these things and still keep playing the job as your main for six years running.

I don't think that any of this comes from a place of toxicity or 'DRK hating'. It's actually the complete opposite. It's constructive feedback from dedicated fans, and that's gold dust to successful game companies. One would hope that they would listen to a fraction of it.

[Kalaam]

Wasn't this part of Yoshi-P's presentation when he came in ? "Listen to complaints. If players complain it means they still care" or something of the sort.

[ArianeEwah]

A recent poll on reddit showed that DRK is currently the most popular tank, and second most popular job overall after RDM. I noticed none of the tiny vocal minority of DRK haters brought this up anywhere.

If you are talking about this poll, I wouldn't count that as "representive". It's actually a result of 720 people voting on this one.

But I could turn the tables by showing you this poll!
It has over 1.3k votes, nearly double as the one above and it shows DRK as the WORST tank. Do I think that is representive either? No, I don't!
I don't give a damn about polls that don't show how you get those result, or who voted. Could be all WoW refugees, or full-fleshed veterans, at this point everything is just speculation.