WARs and DRKs

[Aluja89]

WAR doesn't deserve to steal Dark Arts.

"Deserve" lol. It already has it, it's called infuriate.

[Claire_Pendragon]

I think that DRK very much appeals to players who are used to games with a faster baseline GCD. That's why a lot of us miss the old Blood Weapon haste buff and would like to see it become baseline.

If edge/flood gave a GCD reduction, instead of base dmg increase, that would have made current DRK a billion times better. My biggest gripe with old DRK, even my favorite "HW DRK", was that blood weapons haste couldnt be maintained 100% of the time.

As for current WAR, while nearly identical to SB WAR, the identity to SB WAR (for me) was also its stance dancing, or tank stance dmg penalty removal. Now that it no longer has anything like that, it feels too shallow.
They dont need to remove stance dancing, while keeping the current tank stance system. Just as storms eye, and butchers block are practically the same, except one gives dmg+ and another gives guage, the "new" stances could have worked in a similar fashion. (all while keeping the current tank stance on, and uneffected)

Tank stances

IMO, they should have made the 4 tanks as such:
one tank has a rotation, so as to work for enmity
one tank has a rotation, so as to work for mitigation
one tank has a rotation, so as to work for dps
one tank has a mix of all 3 to a lesser degree

lets use DRK as the base example. (Only because its the most straight forward of the tanks, and makes the example easier to explain.) The buff from DRKs edge/flood is a DPS increase. so DRKs design is the "Maintains DPS". But if WAR/GNB/PLD had identical playstyles as a base, then the edge/flood equivalent oGCD attack, would also increase one of the tanks mitigation power, both passively, and in their CDs. another tank would get a tank stance enmity booster while the buff is up. the other tank probably has to alternate between edge/flood for mitigation/enmity, while gaining some DPS from both. (the reason why this wouldnt be "as hard" would be factors like "stacking the buff" would be made easier, and without a penalty, or some similar system.)

Obviously im not saying to make every job a copy of DRK. Im just using the example for the sake of explaining how it doesnt effect the current games balance. (As this is the #1 argument everyone uses to say this is impossible in 14. and its obviously possible, and obviously i dont think the devs would ever do it, but for the sake of getting players to demand actual identity back for their tanks, i feel using such examples could get enough of the community to not only give feedback, but constructive enough feedback, it might MAYBE be heard.)

[Marxam]

Technically both WAR and DRK are a far cry from what they used to be though DRK got the worst of it, having the most removed skills out of any tank. It's literally a one trick pony with TBN, which is a great cd but if you compare DRK in 3.0 to 5.0 its literally night and day.

At least WAR has stayed consistent though it was constantly nerfed so the other tanks can catch up to it. DRK used to be on par with WAR for self sustain heals but that's gone. Though I think the crux of the argument goes to Delirium. In 3.0 it was combo ender lowering INT. In 4.0 it extended Blood Weapon or Blood Price timers. In 5.0 it acts like Inner Release but without the benefits of 100% DHC, negating knockbacks or status immunes.

Honestly this expansion for tanks has been a half step compared to the significant changes that previous expansions had. It's a lot of reworking skills rather than adding new ones for these two tanks. WAR got nothing new if you played in 4.0 since its tool kit just to reworked and recycled. DRK finally got an aoe combo, but at lvl 72. Though personally I knew something was wrong with all the tanks when the only new defensive cd from 70-80, between PLD, DRK, GNB and WAR was Dark Missionary.

[Vatom]

Technically both WAR and DRK are a far cry from what they used to be though DRK got the worst of it, having the most removed skills out of any tank. It's literally a one trick pony with TBN, which is a great cd but if you compare DRK in 3.0 to 5.0 its literally night and day.

At least WAR has stayed consistent though it was constantly nerfed so the other tanks can catch up to it. DRK used to be on par with WAR for self sustain heals but that's gone. Though I think the crux of the argument goes to Delirium. In 3.0 it was combo ender lowering INT. In 4.0 it extended Blood Weapon or Blood Price timers. In 5.0 it acts like Inner Release but without the benefits of 100% DHC, negating knockbacks or status immunes.

Honestly this expansion for tanks has been a half step compared to the significant changes that previous expansions had. It's a lot of reworking skills rather than adding new ones for these two tanks. WAR got nothing new if you played in 4.0 since its tool kit just to reworked and recycled. DRK finally got an aoe combo, but at lvl 72. Though personally I knew something was wrong with all the tanks when the only new defensive cd from 70-80, between PLD, DRK, GNB and WAR was Dark Missionary.

Spitting Facts there, but I honestly think all the tanks need love not just fix the kits but the leveling experience too. Though I don't see much hope since I saw the benchmark but it can change we still have time. Unique gameplay is all I ask from the jobs, it helps with leveling, choosing what to play etc. For me that is

[Vyrerus]

Technically

DRK has lost since 3.0:

Original Delirium
Power Slash
Spinning Slash
Shadowskin
Sole Survivor
Dark Dance
Dart Arts
Scourge
Darkside(animation)
Dark Passenger
Convalescence (GLA cross class)
Awareness (GLA cross class)
Foresight( MRD cross class)
Mercy Stroke (MRD cross class)
Bloodbath ( MRD cross class)

Warrior has lost since 3.0:
Butcher's Block
Skull Sunder
Fracture
Mercy Stroke
Bloodbath
Maim's ATK buff (actually reduced and swapped onto Eye)
Storm's Eye's slashing debuff
Brutal Swing
Foresight
Unchained
True Berserk (It has been rolled into being a less effective IR)
Internal Release(PGL cross class)
Second Wind (PGL cross class)
Featherfoot (PGL cross class)
Awareness (GLA cross class)
Convalescence (GLA Cross class)

DRK has gained since 4.0/5.0:

The Blood Gauge
New Delirium
Edge of Shadow(darkness)
Flood of Shadow(darkness)
Dark Missionary
The Blackest Night
Quietus
Bloodspiller
Living Shadow
Stalwart Soul
Arm's Length (Role -> first time in history DRK has anti-knockback 5.0)

WAR has gained since 4.0/5.0
Onslaught
Inner Release
Upheaval
Convalescence effect lumped onto Thrill of Battle
Rampart (Role)
Nascent Flash

This is off the top of my head, but basically, they've lost similar amounts of things, while gaining other things. WAR has gained far less in new attacks than DRK, while losing big in terms of % damage increasing effects that used to justify its low amount of oGCDs. That's kind of what you're driving at anyway, but I think it's important to note that WAR possibly lost more, while only really gaining things that partially made up for stuff it lost instead of entirely new toys for the job. DRK feels immensely more fresh when I play it, whereas WAR feels old, almost outdated even.

You'll notice I didn't count Inner Chaos or Chaotic Cyclone into the things gained, and that's because they're literally Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast with slightly larger animations and slightly different sound effects. I can't confirm it, but any time I am synced below having Fell Cleave and Decimate, I swear that Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone were also nerfed in animation/sound effect to feel dimmer too. That's probably a psychological thing at play, but quite literally to me it's like they purposely threw something on WAR to make the paint peel, then painted over it with the exact same old paint but labeled the colors as something new.

[Marxam]

You'll notice I didn't count Inner Chaos or Chaotic Cyclone into the things gained, and that's because they're literally Steel Cyclone and Inner Beast with slightly larger animations and slightly different sound effects. I can't confirm it, but any time I am synced below having Fell Cleave and Decimate, I swear that Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone were also nerfed in animation/sound effect to feel dimmer too. That's probably a psychological thing at play, but quite literally to me it's like they purposely threw something on WAR to make the paint peel, then painted over it with the exact same old paint but labeled the colors as something new.

The sounds iirc for FC was nerfed in in SB but not a big deal since I always have sfx pretty low, or listening to other music. Like I said, WAR and DRK feel like half steps but WAR has been consistent which is good or bad depending on your view. WAR was always the self heal, build up gauge via gcds, burst tank and its design was fixed after 2.1, only to being perfected in 3.0. All these radical changes to DRK just tells me that the devs aren't sure what they want to do with the job. WAR comes off as confident in its design and whether you played in 2.0 or 5.0 you will always know that if you hit something with big damage, you will get a big heal in return. It why even though the tool kit got reworked WAR still more or less functions the same as before, just with less damage due to Berserk nerfs. Doesn't matter how much skills are lost if the core design retained.

I feel like DRK is a prisoner of the game design, constantly changing with each expansion as the devs rework how the game plays and remove things like TP. 3.0 DRK was designed as a magical tank to complement PLD, who was the physical tank (couldn't block magic in 3.0). 4.0 DRK was the resource management tank, since PLD can now block and WAR was getting nerfed. It had a mix of fast gameplay (too fast for some players) and burst while managing MP and TP. 5.0 DRK seems to want to be the shield tank with how strong TBN is. I think this a good start but the devs need to stop radically changing this job.

Also, you forgot WAR SiO used to be able to remove debuffs like Doom from Exdeath. Problem is game design has shifted so this skill can be either overpowered (removing all debuffs) or underwhelming (very niche use), sadly its the latter. SiO would have been great in 2.0 or 3.0 when Berserk had pacification but since that was removed in 4.0 it was reworked to what we have now, which was a good call imo to have a party utility rather than rework the entire game around this one skill.

[Jbaud]

the quest is supposed to be available at lvl 30 but you can not get to the quest giver till lvl 50. What am I doing wrong?

[shao32]

the quest is supposed to be available at lvl 30 but you can not get to the quest giver till lvl 50. What am I doing wrong?

You are doing nothing wrong is a quest design problem that affect DRK, AST and MCH saddly, DRK quest is aviable at level 30 but the zone where is located is Ishgard wich is only accesible after complete ARR at level 50, complete the story until you reach Ishgard and you Will have full access to the job.

[MagiusNecros]

Warrior and Paladin I think are fine. Dark Knight remains a problem. It's a discount Warrior with TBN.

GNB suffers from button bloat. At least for gamepad players.

[Absimiliard]

To me, DRK very much still feels like WAR-lite in terms of actual gameplay. Functionally they are quite different, being as one brings extreme mitigation while the other has extreme self-healing, but that doesn't do much to differentiate when they feel so similar. It just boils down to identity, of which DRK currently has very little.