Recognizing parasistic game design decision

[SeverianLyonesse]

Given that theme park MMOs are expected to fulfill a wide range of fantasies, it is difficult to argue that *any* features are parasitic as long as they add another facet to the roleplaying/adventuring experience. However, if I *were* to look at parasitic design, I would point toward things like:

* Chocobo Racing. Waste of design space for the sake of three boring courses and unengaging gameplay. (to some extent, also Lord of Verminion, albeit mechanically deeper, is very slow and repetitive)
* The Hunt. I never enjoyed this feature as FF XII's sole extracurricular. But I'm especially perplexed why it exists alongside-yet-separate-from the FATE system (and as currency, separate from GC seals). A lot of bureaucratic red tape inserted for no reason (much like ARR's Relic Weapons).
* Mining/Botany. Weren't fun when they were more complex. Aren't fun now that they are mindlessly simple.
* Multiple crafting classes. Their hotbars all play identically. The quests are functionally identical. They generally share the same gear. I don't know why I need to waste all the time, gil, and weapons slots to do this eight times over. At the very least, Armorer/Blacksmith should have been combined, but I would argue that if the jobs weren't going to be differentiated more they all should have just been a single crafting class.

These things clearly have niche appeal, but I also think they are so thin and/or clunky that they really don't have any reason to exist for their own sake in their present form. I especially think the Gathering/Crafting classes fit the idea of "parasitic" the most since they are so insular in how demanding of your time and resources they are and yet how important they are to the game and community. Even if you yourself don't want the convenience of being able to craft things yourself, the entire game's economy revolves around crafting and gathering.

And again, I have to recognize that my perspective isn't absolute either. To some people, it may be that FF XIV is a game about maintaining a virtual job and playing the local market. Maybe to them it isn't an action RPG but an economic RPG. But that's not how I play it, and at least based off of how the rest of the game is designed I don't see that as being its primary source of fun for players.

[Shougun]

I've heard about the WoW systems where they just dump everything you earned, I'm not sure how that idea was allowed lol.

Having just watched the video though. . . I think some people might want to disagree with the term of the video, or perhaps reformulate the conversation, because given they said Garrison was parasitic (nothing happened to the system after they made it), you could say squadrons are in similar lines. Garrison can still provide you things, even though it's just abandoned content at this point. First deep dungeon is a separate system, and can provide some use, but also is abandoned (though I would prefer calling it 'finished' content as it doesn't feel abandoned per say, though squadrons do feel abandoned).

Their key way to test if it was parasitic or not is if you can remove it from the game and it didn't really impact other things. Which there are a few systems in FFXIV that you could do that to.

Like I said I'm thinking some people might disagree with the word usage, or something, because at least having watched what he went over there are a few systems FFXIV have that meet that idea. Borrowed power is just such a design that I scratch my noggin though, and FFXIV definitely doesn't use that- particularly.

Just thought to note the video that starts this discussion goes more than just to talk about borrowed power, so the term, that started the thread, isn't inspired simply by that one system.

This video focused on making core systems that don't get thrown away, and while the borrowed system is some crazy offender to that, he did mention things like Garrisons (which still provide content, it's just sort of abandoned). If Garrisons make the cut then the term broadens and you can include a lot more things.

"a side show for the next few months". Temporary content that doesn't matter in a year (or what have you).

I do wish some systems would be brought together / updated better, like squadrons vs trusts- just seems like there needs to be some companion polishing. That said I also don't necessarily think content islands are always evil, and because you can get things that leave those islands (gear, mounts, achievements). My only concern for such islands is that SE plans around their demise such that the content doesn't forever die out (which SE general does do, like the insane echo you can get in Eureka, and I really appreciate they do that, and hope they continue to keep finger to the pulse to ensure accessibility).

[Bacent]

I can go back to any of the content you're talking about and re-do it at my own pace. I never relied on what I got from that content to 'boost me ahead of the crowd' that didn't do it. PotD/HoH got me levels and some near glamour items/mounts. The rewards didn't do anything besides let me show off a little bit.

Eureka was way too confined to its self, so you couldn't do anything else while working on the grind, which did push a ton of players away from it, as well as bringing back archaic game designs like leveling down if you died. No way to continue anything related to your relic in 4.X outside of Eureka. It was all or nothing. It tried way too hard to be FFXI 2.0 and I stopped going there when I got my one relic that didn't have an elemental bonus on it because that would require me to join way too many people to finalize my relic.

Bozja was partially tied to the relic, partially tied to some side story content, it was the 5.X version of PotD/HoH in a way that you could level up from level 71 to 80 in there which made multi taking VERY NICE FOR MANY PEOPLE, and a few other things I don't remember off the top of my head. You could work on the relic while outside of Bozja, which I made ample use of working on six relics when I didn't want to deal with other people for a bit. There were glamours, mounts, and other things you could only get in there but again it was optional to go after them, and many things could be sold on the market board so others could buy them from you. The relic is only a tiny bit better than the savage weapon, since you could change the smallest bit of stats on them


The worst of the content you're saying is 'parasistic' honestly was Eureka. It catered to only a certain percentage of the population, and it only got 'better' in the later stages of it, but some of the stuff you still couldn't do without getting a lot of people for it. All the issues they had there they fixed with Bozja, still has issues. But there are some groups of players out there that have discords for that kind of content.

There's groups for almost all kinds of content, including people I see advertising discord groups that focus on PvP during weekends so people can still play it.

But none of that will make/break you for anything that isn't related to it, compared to the crapshoot of systems I have heard that WoW has.

[Ronduwil]

Some prime examples for FF14 are Diadem, Deep Dungeons and Blue Mage. Now Square Enix has walked a fine line here of making all of these things optional but it is worth it to be educated about this topic.

I don't think that Diadem, Deep Dungeons, and Blue Mage qualify as parasitic because, as Josh Strife Hayes pointed out, a parasitic design takes from the game's core gameplay. None of those three things do that. Near the end of the video, he even points out that there's a difference between a minigame and a parasitic design, and "minigame" is the category into which those three fall. If those three unlocked traits that were available job-wide, then I'd be more inclined to support your assertion. I don't even believe that they're walking a fine line. I think you're confusing a minigame for a parasitic system, and there's a huge difference. FFXIV is nowhere near the borrowed power approach that WoW is taking. In WoW, for example, Torghast could have been classified simply as a minigame if it weren't for the fact that it is the only way to get a Legendary item which is BiS for whatever class or spec you play. Leveling a covenant could have qualified similarly, if it weren't for the fact that each covenant adds additional abilities that provide significant boosts and modifications to your core rotations. Nothing in FFXIV incentivizes high end raiders to level a Blue Mage or clear Deep Dungeons. They are nowhere near the tipping point that WoW hit long ago.

[Goji1639]

Bozja was definitely parasitic garbage. Balancing the instances around 1 time use, content limited RNG consumables you had to farm trash in the overworld for is pretty egregious.

This game is generally pretty respectful of peoples time, and doesn't try trap players on negative feedback treadmills as a lazy way to extend content beyond it's actual value. Bozja was a very disappointing turn.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Their key way to test if it was parasitic or not is if you can remove it and the game and it didn't really impact other things. Which there are a few systems in FFXIV that you could do that to.

While that is a factor, another one is that are you forced to participate in said content.

WoW being used as the big example...
You HAD to build up your legendary weapon in Legion, because it was the only weapon you had.
You HAD to level up your Heart of Azeroth in BfA, there was nothing else to use in the neck slot, and you also had powers and other Azerite gear tied to it.
You HAVE to level up your covenant's Renown in Shadowlands, otherwise you're missing out on the soulbinds and are just weaker.



The only thing that players in FF XIV are required to participate in is doing dungeons to get Tomestones to buy better gear to do the next bit of story and the dungeon whenever patches arrive.

[Shougun]

While that is a factor, another one is that are you forced to participate in said content.

WoW being used as the big example...
You HAD to build up your legendary weapon in Legion, because it was the only weapon you had.
You HAD to level up your Heart of Azeroth in BfA, there was nothing else to use in the neck slot, and you also had powers and other Azerite gear tied to it.
You HAVE to level up your covenant's Renown in Shadowlands, otherwise you're missing out on the soulbinds and are just weaker.



The only thing that players in FF XIV are required to participate in is doing dungeons to get Tomestones to buy better gear to do the next bit of story and the dungeon whenever patches arrive.

Never got to Garrisons in the time I played WoW (though I've watched videos on it), were Garrisons a requirement or "basically a requirement"?

Also rewatching the video but I don't recall him saying you are forced to do the content makes it parasite, did you add that yourself? Edit: I do think you did, or you might have missed the point of why I made my post (I wasn't debating what the video said, I was saying people are already on different footing because the video isn't saying what people are talking about and it was clearly part of the OP's thought process.

"can be removed from the game and nothing would happen"
"sucks from other mechanics but doesn't add anything back" <- I feel this one is weird because, doesn't items count? Maybe they mean on a far more gameplay level.

Examples given like garrison and borrowed power.

"A parasitic design mechanic, aspect, system, or an update, that requires other systems to support it, taking time and resources from core resources but not ingratiating itself into those other systems"

"Trends that will eventually die, doesn't become an important part of the game."


So... just to be clear I'm not arguing what is or isn't a parasitic design, I'm saying what OP used as a starting point of conversation is counter to what people are saying. Like it seems like you are adding a qualification to what I just said, but that's not what the video said, so.. if we, you and I, are discussing it sure, but I was bringing up the video.

I'm not arguing for the video, just discussing people are already missing each other. In other words people are not agreeing on what the worse use is, from the very beginning. And that there are systems in FFXIV that OP's video would qualify for parasitic design.

Noting the end of my post making comment on content islands (basically what Eureka(s) are), are fine given some caveats, but that abandoned content is sometimes a bit sad (like squadrons). This is why I said "their" not my, if the video did discuss "required to" content then if you could timestamp link it because I watched it twice (while doing other tasks) and did not hear that once. If you want to add extra rules, be my guest, just realize you're not arguing me, as I was only conveying the video that started this.

[Ronduwil]

Having just watched the video though. . . I think some people might want to disagree with the term of the video, or perhaps reformulate the conversation, because given they said Garrison was parasitic (nothing happened to the system after they made it), you could say squadrons are in similar lines. Garrison can still provide you things, even though it's just abandoned content at this point.

Actually, they made many changes to crafting in the wake of Garrisons. Crafting in WoW used to be progressive. Like FFXIV, WoW crafting originally required a succession of materials that required gathering across all expansions. That's no longer the case. Imagine Square revamped all the gathering/crafting jobs such that you had ARR gathering/crafting levels 1-50, Heavensward gathering/crafting levels 1-50, Stormblood gathering/crafting levels 1-50, and Shadowbringers gathering/crafting levels 1-50. Then you just buy a boost, level your Shadowbringers gathering/crafting, and are instantly gathering/crafting the best items available in the game in a matter of days. Basically, all the gathering and crafting that you've done is completely irrelevant as soon as the next expansion is released.

On top of that, there have been multiple nerfs to the gold rewards from garrison mission tables so that the current content can continue to provide the highest gold rewards.

Additionally, the garrisons used to provide very good starter gear for alts. That's been completely nerfed into irrelevance.

The only relevance that garrisons provide these days is the generation of hexweave cloth that tailors can use to cheaply craft decent bags. And even that's more effort that it's worth because the cloth available in Shadowlands provides better bags than that.

Garrisons could have been made progressive, the way you seem to believe that they are, but Blizzard chose not to do that because they didn't want to invest the time in it. It was far easier to nerf garrisons into irrelevance than it was to rebalance them to accommodate the repeated stat squishes.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

Bozja was definitely parasitic garbage. Balancing the instances around 1 time use, content limited RNG consumables you had to farm trash in the overworld for is pretty egregious.

This game is generally pretty respectful of peoples time, and doesn't try trap players on negative feedback treadmills as a lazy way to extend content beyond it's actual value. Bozja was a very disappointing turn.

I'm curious, will you use Bozja at all to level Reaper and Sage in 6.0? It will still have a use for leveling alt jobs from 71 to 80 just like PoTD up to 60 and HoH up to 70. Of course it can also be used to level up all jobs not yet 80 at the time any expansion launches.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Yes, mandatory participation was not listed as a requirement by Josh, or his sources.

But, the thing is, people like the OP are pointing at minigames and calling them parasitic... However with the definition of "can be removed with affecting the rest of the game", this covers most of FF XIV because as I said, dungeons are the only things that you couldn't get rid of.

As for sucking away form mechanics without adding anything back... There's very little of that. Most of the content exists because of the mechanics, not for them.

The biggest pile of parasitic content on a technical level is the Golden Saucer. Should the Golden Saucer be removed because it's "parasitic", or is it fine because you literally don't ever have to go there if you so choose?