Yotsuyu, the irredeemable monster

[Shuuchi]

The thing you need to "get" about Yotsuyu is that she is more likely than not commentary on Japanese culture past and present. Doma, being based on medieval Japan, naturally has a similar culture. Yotsuyu's wrath is directed primarily at her adopted family, but also Doman culture in general - chiefly the concept of filial piety (being loyal to your family, no matter what) and the tendency not to address social problems in order to save face. These cultural tenets absolutely destroyed Yotsuyu, twisting her into a hateful monster because her family was allowed to demand anything of her and she'd have to obey, while the rest of the country turned a blind eye because it wasn't their problem. Further exacerbating this is that Yotsuyu's "parents" were actually her aunt and uncle, and orphans / bastard children were (and still are) heavily stigmatized in the culture Doma was derived from.

(Final Fantasy's rival Persona illustrated the faults and flaws of contemporary Japanese culture well with its latest outing. Suffice to say there is a lot of cultural context behind Yotsuyu you won't get unless you familiarize yourself with at least some of it.)

Would I say Yotsuyu is an irredeemable monster? Ahh... no. Maybe it's just my particular sensibilities, but I believe it's implied Yotsuyu retakes her original identity (from "Tsuyu") because she realizes her family will never let her live a peaceful life and because she feels unbearably guilty over how kindly Gosetsu has been treating her despite how horribly she treated him (and to a lesser degree all of Doma) prior to her amnesia. So she opts for an elaborate suicide by cop from the Warrior of Light instead of living as her parents' and Asahi's tool because she believes she has no other options.

Overall I find Yotsuyu a deeply tragic and sympathetic character, not irredeemable by any means. That's not to say her actions are justifiable or excusable, but they are definitely understandable.

Filial piety, aka, the respect for one's elders, look not for excitement in the troubles of others, try to solve your problems using your own strength, etc. are products of Confucianism.
But over thousands of years, the ideas were warped, becoming what you have described above.
Feudal Japan copied almost everything they had from China, which is why Confucian ideas are so deeply ingrained in Japanese society.
Today, "Asian parents" is used in a derogatory way for the exact reason.

From the geography to the landscape to the names of NPCs to the FATEs to the dungeon tucked away in the corner, Doma is clearly, and unmistakably, China.
YoshiP declaring Doma as ancient Japan was likely done to avoid controversy, as FF14's Chinese audience would not take kindly to Samurai ruling over faux China.
Plus, the Japanese would be less than pleased to see Imperial Japan, aka, Garleans in Doma portrayed in a bad light either.
Like many in England, a sizable amount of the Japanese believe that imperialism was a good thing, even in modern times.

I am VERY familiar with it all.
A LOT more than I'd like to admit.

I've been avoiding bringing culture into this discussion, yet again and again some have seen fit to do just that.
Not only does it severely cheapen the conversation, it is not a subject you'd want to see me rant about.



On a side note, MilkieTea posted a link on page 3 explaining the difference between Sympathy and Empathy.
To clarify, did you mean to say you are sympathetic or empathetic towards Yotsuyu?

[Shuuchi]

Perhaps you shouldn't use Zenos' words to classify anyone's motivations given that Zenos himself and his rage boner for the WoL is pretty much the dictionary definition of petty.

But what is "petty" for one person may be emotionally crippling and crippling for another. While Emet and Elidibus are absorbed in revenge for or reclamation of their world's being destroyed so is Yotsuyu, it's just that Yotsuyu's world is an internal one. Did the story as written and told properly bring that forward? No, but that doesn't make her an inherently bad character, it just makes her a badly written one (or, more precisely, a hastily written one that lost nuance because they needed to Supervillain her in the case of expediency).

Emet-Selch was picking up the shards of a shattered world and trying to rebuilt it from scratch, one piece at a time.
Elidibus was working tirelessly so that one day he could reunite with his long lost friends.
Revenge was the least of their concern, if a concern at all.

In her rage, Yotsuyu sought to burn everything to cinders, including herself.
Yotsuyu cared for no one, held no beliefs.
The only driving force behind her was her hatred for her countrymen.

They are polar opposites.
After all, it's much easier to tear something down than to build it back up.

I wish we could see how our current writer would've written Yostuyu.

I heavily, heavily empathize with her and her backstory, like I said earlier I went through very similar experiences as Yotsuyu as a child. I wonder if, given a similar writeup as Elidibus (whom we only saw for brief moments in ARR and then ShB for what... a total of 4 hours of playtime? and yet he's become a favored villain) and Emet-Selch, she'd be a lot more palatable to the main audience. For those who can already empathize with her, it's easy for us to see her and go "This is a solid, sympathetic villain. She did understandable things given the circumstances of her upbringing and while they were horrible things, it is easy to see where things would lead." But for those left out of that, it just seems contrived and I wonder if given different writing it wouldn't seem as contrived.

Though I will say her story was rushed as heck. I wish there'd been some more time to flesh her out beyond what they did.

I can see why so many empathize/synpathize with Yotsuyu.
"Circumstance" has been repeatedly broached as reasoning.

While I do not reject the notion, as I have stated from the very beginning that it's natural to feel sorry for Yotsuyu, we have been talking past one another from the get go.

I had a fundamentally different interpretation stemming from philosophy and principle.

When a person is driven To The Edge, two things can happen:
1. "To hell with it all, I will not let you break me. I'm going to keep pressing forward."
2. "Woe is me, the world is too cruel. Maketh me a bed of ash and I shall lay in it."

The first is the path taken by Fordola, Elidibus and the WoL, as we trudged towards Ishgard at the end of ARR.
The second is the path taken by Yotsuyu, who chose to give up, decrying her tragic fate.

The first is the path of heroes*.
The second is the path of villains.

Having taken the second option not once, but twice, Yotsuyu has shown that she is irredeemable.



With all that said, I whole heartedly agree that Yotsuyu's story was WAAAAY too rushed, but also forced.
At first, I was honestly expecting SE to let her sit in the oven for at least another expansion as to develop her character more as well as give us a chance to grow attached to her.
But considering SE was siphoning funds from FF14 to fund FF16 development, you could say it wasn't much of a surprise.



*P.S.: by "heroes", I do not mean the path is exclusive to heroes. Motivation is one of the key factors that separate poorly written villains and masterfully written villains, after all.

[Caurcas]

I do agree Fordola made it out better writing wise than Yotsuyu did. While people may feel bad for her past, it does not absolve one of choice. She clearly chose to be a depraved tyrant and deserved to be put down as such.

[Ftail]

Yotsuyu-sama really did nothing wrong, those Domans had it coming.

I absolutely love her, she's my favorite character of all time. I really wish SE decided to sell official Yotsuyu merchandise. The only thing they sell of her is the minion that you get from the artbook, I'm really excited to get it shipped in Oct, I've been waiting over 7 months for it to come already. My wall poster of her looks simply amazing, I just wish I had an official SE one, same with my Yotsuyu dakimakura cover. I've been looking at getting a few key chains of her and I really want to find a coffee mug. She really is the best character to ever exist, I love her so much.

[Bright-Flower]

While I think your idea is FAR more interesting than what SE came up with, SB was focused around a cardboard box called Zenos.
He wanted someone as cruel and destructive as possible, not someone who actually cares and want to reform Doma.

I get why someone like Zenos would put someone like her in charge. I get they were also going for some sort of 'monsters are made not born' thing by delving into Yotsuyu's backstory and showing her innocent amnesia version of her. But it just wasn't executed well IMO. This is just a personal thing but when you go full ham comically evil with a character's introduction it's then difficult to make me care when you peel back the curtain to show why they became comically evil.

Really though, if Yotsuyu had just died in 4.0 I wouldn't have much complaint about her, it was really the 4.2/4.3 arc that made me loathe her presence in the story.

[Shuuchi]

I get why someone like Zenos would put someone like her in charge. I get they were also going for some sort of 'monsters are made not born' thing by delving into Yotsuyu's backstory and showing her innocent amnesia version of her. But it just wasn't executed well IMO. This is just a personal thing but when you go full ham comically evil with a character's introduction it's then difficult to make me care when you peel back the curtain to show why they became comically evil.

Really though, if Yotsuyu had just died in 4.0 I wouldn't have much complaint about her, it was really the 4.2/4.3 arc that made me loathe her presence in the story.

Absolutely.
Hien’s “I will remember your words” (sounds familiar, eh?) should have ended everything right then and there.

[Tensaihime]

Absolutely.
Hien’s “I will remember your words” (sounds familiar, eh?) should have ended everything right then and there.

That almost sounds familiar... but I can’t quite place it. Help please?

[Tensaihime]

When a person is driven To The Edge, two things can happen:
1. "To hell with it all, I will not let you break me. I'm going to keep pressing forward."
2. "Woe is me, the world is too cruel. Maketh me a bed of ash and I shall lay in it."

The first is the path taken by Fordola, Elidibus and the WoL, as we trudged towards Ishgard at the end of ARR.
The second is the path taken by Yotsuyu, who chose to give up, decrying her tragic fate.

The first is the path of heroes*.
The second is the path of villains.

Stupid question time: are you referring to Elidibus the dude, or... salvation!Elidibus? The first one does strike me as heroic due to what he chooses, but the second is more like something that MUST continue due to what he’s become. Long as we’re here, WoL at the end of ARR always seemed like that to me too, not particularly heroic, no longer with enough people or resources to interrupt a Garlean picnic, just being forced to go to a different place (and a place where they can expect nothing good) because they aren’t left with a better choice at that point.

[Shuuchi]

Stupid question time: are you referring to Elidibus the dude, or... salvation!Elidibus? The first one does strike me as heroic due to what he chooses, but the second is more like something that MUST continue due to what he’s become. Long as we’re here, WoL at the end of ARR always seemed like that to me too, not particularly heroic, no longer with enough people or resources to interrupt a Garlean picnic, just being forced to go to a different place (and a place where they can expect nothing good) because they aren’t left with a better choice at that point.

Elidibus, the dude.
Especially when he realized that his meddling had inadvertently caused the demise of what little remained of his friends, whom he cared for more than anything in the world, including himself, Elidibus kept a stiff upper lip and kept moving forward.
He is now the last, and only ember of hope left remaining.
The sheer weight of the guilt on his shoulders, piled atop his seemingly impossible duty, must have been unbearable.

At the end of ARR, the WoL was betrayed by the very people we were trying to protect and even had to slay those we have shared a bond with.
As far as the WoL knew*, the friends who stood alongside us this whole time are all dead.
The blood we shed, our feats and accomplishments, all reduced to naught in an instant.
We don’t even have a place to call home.
Having fallen from 100 to 0 in such a brutal manner, how easy it would be to simply let go and slip into a dark, gentle place.
But that’s not what makes a hero, a hero.

*We as players knew the scions had infinite plot-armor, but that’s metagaming. The WoL would not know that.

[Tensaihime]

Elidibus, the dude.
Especially when he realized that his meddling had inadvertently caused the demise of what little remained of his friends, whom he cared for more than anything in the world, including himself, Elidibus kept a stiff upper lip and kept moving forward.
He is now the last, and only ember of hope left remaining.
The sheer weight of the guilt on his shoulders, piled atop his seemingly impossible duty, must have been unbearable.

At the end of ARR, the WoL was betrayed by the very people we were trying to protect and even had to slay those we have shared a bond with.
As far as the WoL knew*, the friends who stood alongside us this whole time are all dead.
The blood we shed, our feats and accomplishments, all reduced to naught in an instant.
We don’t even have a place to call home.
Having fallen from 100 to 0 in such a brutal manner, how easy it would be to simply let go and slip into a dark, gentle place.
But that’s not what makes a hero, a hero.

*We as players knew the scions had infinite plot-armor, but that’s metagaming. The WoL would not know that.

Oooof, you’re making me feel awful for Elidibus all over again. Makes sense though, so thanks.


And I swear to you on a stack of players’ guides, I the player saw the complete disaster the WoL’s life became and zero thought of plot armor crossed my mind. I remember thinking it was just as bad as you describe it, and so I remember yelling “they’re all dead, we can no longer fight the Garleans/Ascians, what the [kupo] do I want with that frozen hole?!” And I remember Midgardsormr tells your character at the end “there is no safety, you dumb WoL” (well, in so many words) and then the WoL looks angry. Like they know darn well but don’t want to admit that their future is now nothing but babysitting the lordling and being abused by xenophobic fundamentalists before the giant fire-breathing hell-beast they’ve failed to kill for a thousand years comes to put everybody out of their misery.

I did not see a hero. I saw some poor sucker who was so desperate to escape the frying pan that they chucked themselves into the fire and pretended it was fine.