Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

[Arrius]

honestly, even bad groups shouldn't have issues with the first two (the little guys right outside spawn and the two big guys) mobs if the healer focuses on healing and uses their kit

Pushing it all on the healer again that they should adjust, instead of having the DPS properly use their kit by now and making the life of the others easier.

I see. Lovely.

[Rinhi]

Pushing it all on the healer again that they should adjust, instead of having the DPS properly use their kit by now and making the life of the others easier.

I see. Lovely.

I'm not pushing it on the healer directly, but they're the ones who decide who lives and dies and have all the tools available for it and I made that post with the knowledge and experience of mainly playing as a healer in DF
also, I take it you haven't gone much into the topics about player performance because I've been called a toxic elitist tryhard raider (I don't even raid) in there for making exactly your point; that DPS (and players in general) should try their best - or even put in some kind of effort when they play with strangers because doing anything else is a sign of selfishness in my eyes, so the post you quoted is purely in the context of salvaging a bad run where you can't kick everyone

[Arrius]

I'm not pushing it on the healer directly, but they're the ones who decide who lives and dies and have all the tools available for it and I made that post with the knowledge and experience of mainly playing as a healer in DF
also, I take it you haven't gone much into the topics about player performance because I've been called a toxic elitist tryhard raider (I don't even raid) in there for making exactly your point; that DPS (and players in general) should try their best - or even put in some kind of effort when they play with strangers because doing anything else is a sign of selfishness in my eyes, so the post you quoted is purely in the context of salvaging a bad run where you can't kick everyone

But the general lack of proper DPS in DF dungeon is a problem which forces tanks and healers to go slower then usual.
And the perfect example is Bardam's Mettle - Both eventually run out of cooldowns to throw out when there isn't enough damage around for the clear, and the chaos is complete once the tank drops.

Then they get shat on that they don't pull more. Great.

[Goji1639]

The amount of effort and skill it takes to tank a dungeon in this game is such a low bar that it really baffles me that some tank players have egos and a overinflated sense of their authority in a group. I'm used to tanks having egos in other games and content and it's usually at least somewhat earned there.

The bigger issue with these kinds of tanks are the people that enable them. You know, like the pocket healer who will not heal you at the behest of a toxic player, when it's trivial for a tank to just take aggro in one or two GCDs at the most.

I can't give you great advice on this kind of scenario and I'm sorry it's causing you this much stress. These kinds of interactions are unfortunately pretty common or easy to trigger so I'm at the point where I just don't even speak to people in this game. Don't follow my example too much though, since I'm friendless and just run 30m-1hr worth of content with randoms once in awhile. I'm usually healing or dpsing and my policy is to visibly signal to the tank that they should keep moving, and when they don't then if it's an 80 dungeon I'll grab more enemies, if it's a leveling dungeon I'll let it be. Even in a leveling dungeon though, it just sucks if a tank doesn't pull more - might as well run with a Trust at that point. I get that tanks can have performance anxiety but I wish there was some way to get through to new tanks at large that their cooldowns are more available and efficient when they big pull, and that their gameplay is exactly the same whether it's 3 mobs or 10.

Unfortunately kicking is so difficult to do in FF between the 5min minimum from starting the dungeon, and not being able to kick during rolls, that it's often just better to deal with the bad behavior or just leave if you can swing the penalty timer. The penalty timer is a whole other issue that forces you to usually subject yourself to toxic people or YOU get punished and can't even do casual content like some gold saucer stuff for those 30 mins. This game is full of bad systems but I digress.

How difficult it is has nothing to do with this. If you want bigger pulls you ask. If you choose co-opt the tanks role in the group out of nowhere without saying a word, and force everyone to adjust on the spot because you can't tank the crap you just pulled, then you're inconsiderate and a nuisance. At that point no one is obligated to be nice to you.

This community has a funny outlook on toxicity. Most of you can't be bothered to offer even basic levels of consideration to other players by making a simple request, and instead opt to do dismissive and passive aggressive things like forcing the tanks hand. Then when the tank has the nerve to be passive aggressive back you all piss yourselves and cry about the horrible toxicity you've just endured.

[FrogDog]

How difficult it is has nothing to do with this. If you want bigger pulls you ask. If you choose co-opt the tanks role in the group out of nowhere without saying a word, and force everyone to adjust on the spot because you can't tank the crap you just pulled, then you're inconsiderate and a nuisance. At that point no one is obligated to be nice to you.

This community has a funny outlook on toxicity. Most of you can't be bothered to offer even basic levels of consideration to other players by making a simple request, and instead opt to do dismissive and passive aggressive things like forcing the tanks hand. Then when the tank has the nerve to be passive aggressive back you all piss yourselves and cry about the horrible toxicity you've just endured.

Your role is to tank all the enemies from wall to wall. I'm not co-opting your role, I'm coaxing you to actually do it. I've done the song and dance of asking people plenty of times, or I've watched friends go through the motions of asking. Either the tank is dead silent like most PUG players are, or they start pitching a fit. And yes, a tank being a prima donna because they weren't the first person to hit an enemy is toxic behavior.

I had an experience with somebody about a month ago in expert roulette where I was DPSing as MNK. I've lost track of how many times I've run Matoya's Relict so I'm not even really paying attention, I just know I see somebody running forward towards the 2nd boss of the place so I do what my muscle memory tells me and shoulder tackle and start doing my opener. Only, I see that I'm keeping aggro. Turns out the samurai was the one who was running forward (all cat/lizard girls look alike to me) and the tank took umbrage and proceeded to slow walk around the boss arena while the samurai and I traded off aggro and and the healer, my friend, kept us alive. No talking to the toxic tank got us out of that situation, she just decided to be unreasonable and then we couldn't even kick her because she just held up loot rolls. This community is full of really crappy people, and some of them play tanks, but go off.

Your job isn't hard. My job isn't hard. Dungeons aren't hard. If somebody else takes aggro, just hit the enemy with your tank stance up and get over yourself.

[KizuyaKatogami]

How difficult it is has nothing to do with this. If you want bigger pulls you ask. If you choose co-opt the tanks role in the group out of nowhere without saying a word, and force everyone to adjust on the spot because you can't tank the crap you just pulled, then you're inconsiderate and a nuisance. At that point no one is obligated to be nice to you.

This community has a funny outlook on toxicity. Most of you can't be bothered to offer even basic levels of consideration to other players by making a simple request, and instead opt to do dismissive and passive aggressive things like forcing the tanks hand. Then when the tank has the nerve to be passive aggressive back you all piss yourselves and cry about the horrible toxicity you've just endured.

You shouldn’t have to ask for a tank to do big pulls,that should be common knowledge the moment you’re out of ARR. If tanks can’t manage a big pull or wall to wall pull, they’re being inconsiderate for not taking the time to properly learn their job. Obviously people with disabilities are different so just in case someone wants to say that, everyone knows that’s a different story. It’s funny how you say this community has a funny outlook on toxicity. You’re right it does. This community sees any form of criticism as a personal attack, so if you try to give advice in a dungeon, 9 times out of 10 in my experience you’re met with passive aggressiveness or outright disrespect. There’s a reason we keep seeing people not wall to wall pulling or using aoes in endgame dungeons and it’s because people enable them to play badly. This entire issue would be solved if people took 5-10 mins to look up a guide on their job, and know they need to aoe or wall to wall pull. It really isn’t that hard.

[Rinhi]

This community has a funny outlook on toxicity. Most of you can't be bothered to offer even basic levels of consideration to other players by making a simple request, and instead opt to do dismissive and passive aggressive things like forcing the tanks hand. Then when the tank has the nerve to be passive aggressive back you all piss yourselves and cry about the horrible toxicity you've just endured.

the irony of you saying that, mr I don't use any essences in DR and being a condescending prick to anyone explaining nicely to you that it helps and that essences don't take long to """grind"""

[Goji1639]

Your role is to tank all the enemies from wall to wall. I'm not co-opting your role, I'm coaxing you to actually do it. I've done the song and dance of asking people plenty of times, or I've watched friends go through the motions of asking. Either the tank is dead silent like most PUG players are, or they start pitching a fit. And yes, a tank being a prima donna because they weren't the first person to hit an enemy is toxic behavior.

I had an experience with somebody about a month ago in expert roulette where I was DPSing as MNK. I've lost track of how many times I've run Matoya's Relict so I'm not even really paying attention, I just know I see somebody running forward towards the 2nd boss of the place so I do what my muscle memory tells me and shoulder tackle and start doing my opener. Only, I see that I'm keeping aggro. Turns out the samurai was the one who was running forward (all cat/lizard girls look alike to me) and the tank took umbrage and proceeded to slow walk around the boss arena while the samurai and I traded off aggro and and the healer, my friend, kept us alive. No talking to the toxic tank got us out of that situation, she just decided to be unreasonable and then we couldn't even kick her because she just held up loot rolls. This community is full of really crappy people, and some of them play tanks, but go off.

Your job isn't hard. My job isn't hard. Dungeons aren't hard. If somebody else takes aggro, just hit the enemy with your tank stance up and get over yourself.

Your decision to be a passive aggressive, dismissive jerk to every tank you run with just because tanks have hurt your feelings in the past is dumb.

If you ask and it the tank doesn't want to then the group has a decision to make; you don't make the decision for everyone by running ahead. Initiate a vote kick and see if everyone else is as upset about this as you are. If they are then you get a new tank, and if not you shut up and deal with it.

the irony of you saying that, mr I don't use any essences in DR and being a condescending prick to anyone explaining nicely to you that it helps and that essences don't take long to """grind"""

That's completely unrelated and irrelevant to this discussion; and I wasn't being condescending to anyone in that discussion. I don't think you know what irony is.

[FrogDog]

Your decision to be a passive aggressive, dismissive jerk to every tank you run with just because tanks have hurt your feelings in the past is dumb.

If you ask and it the tank doesn't want to then the group has a decision to make; you don't make the decision for everyone by running ahead like a jackass. Initiate a vote kick and see if everyone else is as upset about this as you are. If they are you get a new tank, and if not you shut up and deal with it.

Your decision seems to just be plain aggressive.

I have no strong feelings one way or another when it comes to dungeon roulettes. I'm pretty sure nobody else does either, but everybody appreciates a faster run and most people want wall to wall pulls.

[Goji1639]

Your decision seems to just be plain aggressive.

I have no strong feelings one way or another when it comes to dungeon roulettes. I'm pretty sure nobody else does either, but everybody appreciates a faster run and most people want wall to wall pulls.

My position is that DPS who run ahead and pull are inconsiderate and a nuisance, and when people are inconsiderate I lose any sense obligation I might have had to be nice to them. That's all.

I very rarely have issues with people in-game, honestly. I only ever have these arguments on the forums. The forum community is just a representatively small collection of this game's more problematic players, I believe.

I mean, just look at that hilarious "let's vent" thread. 1000's of pages of "I was totally being the nicest person ever and then people started snapping at me for no reason!" stories. How many times does that have to happen before they all start realizing that they're the common factor? This entire forum community is basically toxic players providing confirmation bias and reassuring each other that "everyone else" is the problem.