Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

[Titania40]

I haven't tried tanking in this game yet. That said, I have tanked in other MMOs. In WoW I've main tanked several at least half of the Burning Crusade dungeons as a death knight. I was well aware of what my limits were and what tools I had to hold aggro. And a few times I was tanking for a group that effectively didn't have a healer due to the 'healer' only doing dps. In those instances my limited self healing was the only healing I had access to, thus I'd be unable to handle as large of groups as usual. So naturally I got booted a time or two when the not-actually-a-healer was team leader and thought I was being too cautious in my pulls.

In City of Heroes (anyone else remember it?) one of my many characters was an Ice Armor/Warmace tanker. And I was good at holding aggro. For those who never played it, an Ice Armor tanker was Defense to damage type based rather then Resistance to damage type based. And until around level 18 they had little to no defense to fire and energy attacks. Meaning that if the group is facing things doing fire and/or energy damage I was basically a squishy with extra hit points and all the aggro. Speaking of aggro, a couple months after I started playing City of Heroes the devs put a cap on how much aggro anyone could have at a time. That cap was 16. If the group's tank already had 16 enemies aggroed onto them, they absolutely couldn't pull any more. For every additional add the tanker tries to tank, one of the previous 16 mobs they were tanking would peal off to attack someone else. You wouldn't believe the amount of vitriol I got at times for daring to not pull entire rooms. Rooms that had anywhere from 30 to 150 enemies in them. Remember, aggro cap of 16. Even if I wanted to try holding that much aggro, and could survive doing so, I couldn't manage it due to game mechanics saying I couldn't.

That said, "you pull it you tank it" seems like a toxic attitude to me. And that's coming from someone who considers it a point of pride to be capable of handling any aggro they manage to pull. Hell, I've managed to main tank with support classes in various MMOs. And in DDO I've managed to off-tank on a sorcerer.

[ZedxKayn]

Because angry people have been playing games for a the entire history of online multiplayer games. But this is a poor question regardless of the fact it ignores that reality because it can be applied to the DPS making it. See:


why is the hypothetical irritated DPS playing a multiplayer game where things can go bad if they're upset already?
why are you absolving them from any blame by putting it firmly on a Tank who may or may not pull multiple groups of mobs - and when he didn't pull wall to wall - pulled said quantity because he was unsure the group or he would be able to easily handle it? why is the person that is actively griefing the other 3 players and the run not to blame? (The DPS)
if the group can't convince the tank to go fast, sure, kick the Tank who refuses to compromise, but anything else is ego wankery because "I want this dungeon to go faster waaaah"

Like, there's just no reason not to communicate and work together in coop multiplayer game. None, whatsoever. This whole everyone has to do it like I say it oughta be just isn't helpful for a PvE MMO.

This is a thread about tanks who shit their pants and grief when they aren't the ones landing the first GCD on a pack of mobs why are you trying to make it about the DPS.

[Ath192]

This is a thread about tanks who shit their pants and grief when they aren't the ones landing the first GCD on a pack of mobs why are you trying to make it about the DPS.

Huh? Lol… did you read the original post? This is a thread about someone looking for advice on situations when this sort of things happen. And I’m glad cooler minds prevailed because according to his edit he has decided not to grief needlessly.

But your response highlights the fundamental issue of DPS who think like this. You tried to make the thread about yourself and your narrative. So don’t wonder why tanks let you die when you don’t think about anything other than what you want.

But for the record I think the tanks should also communicate when dps are doing something that they don’t like and see if the can reach a middle ground. Otherwise they are just displaying the same passive aggressive behavior by letting them die that DPS are displaying when they pull ahead without saying anything.

This is a team based game, perhaps the solution is to work and talk as a team.

[Rinhi]

Because angry people have been playing games for a the entire history of online multiplayer games. But this is a poor question regardless of the fact it ignores that reality because it can be applied to the DPS making it. See:


why is the hypothetical irritated DPS playing a multiplayer game where things can go bad if they're upset already?
why are you absolving them from any blame by putting it firmly on a Tank who may or may not pull multiple groups of mobs - and when he didn't pull wall to wall - pulled said quantity because he was unsure the group or he would be able to easily handle it? why is the person that is actively griefing the other 3 players and the run not to blame? (The DPS)
if the group can't convince the tank to go fast, sure, kick the Tank who refuses to compromise, but anything else is ego wankery because "I want this dungeon to go faster waaaah"

it doesn't really work but I'll respond anyway
why would the irritated dps get upset that the tank is pulling another pack of mobs? their job isn't too manage aggro and with more enemies, they'll do more damage and precisely zero changes about their rotation if it's 9 enemies instead of 6
I also don't know why you think I'm defending a dps that's actively a detriment to the group by pulling too many enemies, please refer to my earlier posts where I said that players like that should get kicked if they don't compromise
doing dungeons with a relatively brisk pace usually means all party members respect each other's time and thus will try to perform at their best regardless of dungeon and usually can gauge how much the group can handle, be it through experience or even gut feeling when it's sprouts

Like, there's just no reason not to communicate and work together in coop multiplayer game. None, whatsoever. This whole everyone has to do it like I say it oughta be just isn't helpful for a PvE MMO.

you're saying this and yet you're actively defending tanks who grief the party at the slightest offence because you think people are defending DPS' who actively grief the run by pulling too much and not people who say that there's nothing wrong with a DPS pulling IF they know the group can handle it and the tank in return getting upset - or, with OP's post in context - accidentally pull a mob because walked with the tank and the tank abruptly stopped and got upset at them

Huh? Lol… did you read the original post? This is a thread about someone looking for advice on situations when this sort of things happen. And I’m glad cooler minds prevailed because according to his edit he has decided not to grief needlessly.

But your response highlights the fundamental issue of DPS who think like this. You tried to make the thread about yourself and your narrative. So don’t wonder why tanks let you die when you don’t think about anything other than what you want.

did you read the OPs post? the OP got griefed and insulted by the tank because they accidentally pulled a mob and people in the thread jumped to the tanks defence because of that self-important "you pull it you tank it" ego shit and the tank(s), let me quote the OP, "'teaching them a lesson"
genuinely wondering how you think the "dps players" are trying to make this thread about themselves by telling the tanks to get a grip and stop whining if someone, accidentally or not, pulls a mob, even in shit like stone vigil or bardam's it's a non issue

[Imora]

I'm going to defend the tanks that single pull on purpose because they can't handle it or they can tell the healer is struggling.

I'll do it when DPS is low too because if I pull big and run out of CDs I'm dead.

Or, it's bardams mettle. I've seen enough horrors there to know better before I even get that far. First pull SUUUUCKS.

[Rinhi]

I'm going to defend the tanks that single pull on purpose because they can't handle it or they can tell the healer is struggling.

I'll do it when DPS is low too because if I pull big and run out of CDs I'm dead.

Or, it's bardams mettle. I've seen enough horrors there to know better before I even get that far. First pull SUUUUCKS.

honestly, even bad groups shouldn't have issues with the first two (the little guys right outside spawn and the two big guys) mobs if the healer focuses on healing and uses their kit

[ZedxKayn]

You tried to make the thread about yourself and your narrative. So don’t wonder why tanks let you die when you don’t think about anything other than what you want.

Dude you're the one who brought up the "salty DPS" thing out of nowhere. YOU read the OP. There is nothing about malicious DPS, only malicious and bad tanks. I'm certainly not the one trying to make it about my narrative, keep projecting.
Also since I'm usually the healer in dungeons, I'd like to just see the tank try to let me die would such a situation arise.

[Ath192]

did you read the OPs post? the OP got griefed and insulted by the tank because they accidentally pulled a mob and people in the thread jumped to the tanks defence because of that self-important "you pull it you tank it" ego shit and the tank(s), let me quote the OP, "'teaching them a lesson"
genuinely wondering how you think the "dps players" are trying to make this thread about themselves by telling the tanks to get a grip and stop whining if someone, accidentally or not, pulls a mob, even in shit like stone vigil or bardam's it's a non issue

Yeah I did, and I don't condone what the tank did, I said as much multiple times. So I gave advice on what people should do and expect out of others. For tanks and DPS to communicate instead of hurling insults and discouraging DPS players from thinking its okay for them to just run ahead and pull whatever they feel like without telling anyone. Seems OP got the advice he wanted, probably from a combination of all the viewpoints here, not necessarily mine.

you're saying this and yet you're actively defending tanks who grief the party at the slightest offence because you think people are defending DPS' who actively grief the run by pulling too much and not people who say that there's nothing wrong with a DPS pulling IF they know the group can handle it and the tank in return getting upset - or, with OP's post in context - accidentally pull a mob because walked with the tank and the tank abruptly stopped and got upset at them

I'm not, I think you are making assumptions you want to make. You'd have to point at explicit text where I encourage tanks to rage. What I did point out is to not be surprised to find tanks who are jerks, if the DPS are also behaving like a jerk. Mistakes not withstanding. So I advocate for communication so people can compromise.

.....

As for your first paragraph, I don't think you read it carefully enough because a DPS only gets irritated when pulls are going too slow, and its built around that premise, just like tanks get irritated when DPS are going too fast, and pull ahead. if you don't read it that way it wouldn't make sense.

But hey, lets put it this way, if you behave in a reasonable manner and attempt to de-escalate toxic situations when they arise instead of escalating them then that's cool and what we should strive for. That's all I'm really after. Honestly I don't think anyone has anyone has anything to gain anymore by going in circles on this topic. Just don't be a jerk to others from either side of the role spectrum, that's it.

[Ath192]

Dude you're the one who brought up the "salty DPS" thing out of nowhere. YOU read the OP. There is nothing about malicious DPS, only malicious and bad tanks. I'm certainly not the one trying to make it about my narrative, keep projecting.
Also since I'm usually the healer in dungeons, I'd like to just see the tank try to let me die would such a situation arise.

No, hardly out of nowhere, salty DPS players are widely found in game and we can also find examples in this forum post like on page 5 where this user posted this:

If Tanks are 80 and not new i'm not doing a 1 group per pull run.
Honestly its so boring and at 80 that Tank should grow some b****...
I will pull or vote kick, and if the group defends that kind of lame Tanking I leave myself.
I've never gotten a GM talk or a warning.
If you don't flame/curse and just speak your opinion its fine.

On the positive side he wont flame/curse so he's not the worst but its clear its his way or the highway, and that's detrimental to a team based MMO. They should talk and reach a compromise, or he should play a game where he doesn't have to deal with others.

[FrogDog]

The amount of effort and skill it takes to tank a dungeon in this game is such a low bar that it really baffles me that some tank players have egos and a overinflated sense of their authority in a group. I'm used to tanks having egos in other games and content and it's usually at least somewhat earned there.

The bigger issue with these kinds of tanks are the people that enable them. You know, like the pocket healer who will not heal you at the behest of a toxic player, when it's trivial for a tank to just take aggro in one or two GCDs at the most.

I can't give you great advice on this kind of scenario and I'm sorry it's causing you this much stress. These kinds of interactions are unfortunately pretty common or easy to trigger so I'm at the point where I just don't even speak to people in this game. Don't follow my example too much though, since I'm friendless and just run 30m-1hr worth of content with randoms once in awhile. I'm usually healing or dpsing and my policy is to visibly signal to the tank that they should keep moving, and when they don't then if it's an 80 dungeon I'll grab more enemies, if it's a leveling dungeon I'll let it be. Even in a leveling dungeon though, it just sucks if a tank doesn't pull more - might as well run with a Trust at that point. I get that tanks can have performance anxiety but I wish there was some way to get through to new tanks at large that their cooldowns are more available and efficient when they big pull, and that their gameplay is exactly the same whether it's 3 mobs or 10.

Unfortunately kicking is so difficult to do in FF between the 5min minimum from starting the dungeon, and not being able to kick during rolls, that it's often just better to deal with the bad behavior or just leave if you can swing the penalty timer. The penalty timer is a whole other issue that forces you to usually subject yourself to toxic people or YOU get punished and can't even do casual content like some gold saucer stuff for those 30 mins. This game is full of bad systems but I digress.