Why is there still no good solution to the housing shortage?

[Omedon]

Honestly, as soon as apartments came in I realized I’d never own a house because I saw that as “THE bone” they would throw out on this front. They want their neighborhoods, they clearly aren’t moved by the clear and obvious haves and have nots feel beyond “everyone can have an apartment,” and they can.

They’re really just boned on this front and some of the subtext there is truly ugly.

[Shougun]

No, but as someone who's done actual coding projects before, I've had to tell Clients what they desire is basically infeasible without having to do giant re-writes of the foundational code they stuck me with, or have to effectively explain why certain systems they've implemented clash with each other and basically render systems they desire to implement infeasible.

Just because one project can do it doesn't mean another can do it. Or at the very least, in a way you desire it to be so.

FF14 uses the instance server for handling instances. it doesn't take a 3000 IQ to realize that any form of 'unlimited, truly instanced' housing will have to use the instance server to handle it, which causes every problem Seraphor mentioned to become true. People can request it all they like; from a technical standpoint, its infeasible to create Instanced housing without basically gutting content development for a patch cycle or two to re-write giant swathes of the game's instance coding. And since it'd actually halt content develpment...it actually is impossible. You think the CEOs at Square will think Yoshi-P is in his right mind to halt content production for an issue like this?

I'm well aware that there is likely huge issues involved- I mean seriously does anyone think if it was easy that we would still be with the issues we have now at this point in the game life? It's obviously not easy, and it's not even moderate, it's likely some crazy mountain of a task that they look at and just scoff like "nooooo thanks".

All of that however does not change what people want. You're incorrect to say that's what people want (which is what Sera said). If I want a red apple but you serve me a plum because that's all you can do, it's obviously and inconvertibly not what I asked for. It still might be the best that can be done, and some people will be like "you know what, thank you", and perhaps the likely solution (it does seem likely we'd have those restrictions if they were forced to get it done, especially if with limited time), but it is just factually incorrect to suggest that's what people are asking for.

Furthermore anytime people ask for something that doesn't exist yet they're going to clearly be in the territory of "make it happen". This particular task is... one heck of a make it happen. I've never felt the team is lazy, else I probably would have left long ago, I'm aware that this one is likely a hill to die on and not change (in this game), but die on and salt the hill I think is still worth it. It has been one of the most obnoxious issues in this game since we began this ride, one that would have been solved by instanced housing (or more interesting and creative solutions like instanced housing that also combines willful communities, something Wildstar had the right ideas on but unfortunately bad ideas on other core parts of the game and a company that didn't want to give them the opportunity to ARR themselves).

As for the later part- obviously if someone can doesn't mean you can copy paste the code and it magically "just works" (Todd Howard™). The statement wasn't because John did it so you HAVE to do it, or even therefore it easy/must be do-able for you (like maybe it's not even their system, just they don't have the right person with the skills to do it, or budget), it was only that John can do it, so it's not a "literally impossible task" - someone found out how to make it work. It's achievable (far better to do from the start when you're making your systems). That was all. Since sometimes people talk as if they've no idea what people mean when they say instanced system, to a point I find some are being dishonest (not an accusation here, but I've seen some stuff that was clearly purposefully ignoring intent, even when it was explained in clearer terms what they meant) We've seen the system done enough time's it's quite clear what people are meaning and timers, queues, and all that are clearly not part of the bill they're trying to cash. Of course FFXIV itself might be like "our system can't do that" and which players can fairly say "well figure it out" and SE can say "no". But the entire time it's clear what people are asking for. To suggest otherwise is incorrect, particularly speaking in this situation where it's obvious, and we have the poster themselves clarifying it for more clarity. Asked for apple, got a plum, not what I asked for then obviously- though perhaps I asked for a fruit that is dang near impossible to grow in the current environment.

[Seraphor]

All of that however does not change what people want. You're incorrect to say that's what people want (which is what Sera said). If I want a red apple but you serve me a plum because that's all you can do, it's obviously and inconvertibly not what I asked for. It still might be the best that can be done, and some people will be like "you know what, thank you", and perhaps the likely solution (it does seem likely we'd have those restrictions if they were forced to get it done, especially if with limited time), but it is just factually incorrect to suggest that's what people are asking for.

Lets try and clear this misunderstanding up.

When I say "that's what you're asking for" what I mean is, "that's what you're going to get if you ask for this."

To take your apple/plum analogy, it's more like:

"I love apples, I really want to have an apple, it's the only fruit I like the taste of, but I really want a a soft purple apple with a big seed in the middle. I'm going to constantly ask for soft purple fruit with a big seed in the middle. But I want it to be an apple."

You keep asking for your soft purple fruit, you're going to get a plum.

"That's not what I asked for, I asked for an apple."

No you didn't.

So what I'm saying is... you don't understand what it is you're asking for.

Instanced housing! I want Instanced housing! Yeah everyone wants their own person housing instance! When are we getting instanced housing.
For years and years these requests come in, and if they take them seriously, eventually we're going to get instanced housing via duty instances.

[Shougun]

Lets try and clear this misunderstanding up.

When I say "that's what you're asking for" what I mean is, "that's what you're going to get if you ask for this."

To take your apple/plum analogy, it's more like:

"I love apples, I really want to have an apple, it's the only fruit I like the taste of, but I really want a a soft purple apple with a big seed in the middle. I'm going to constantly ask for soft purple fruit with a big seed in the middle. But I want it to be an apple."

You keep asking for your soft purple fruit, you're going to get a plum.

"That's not what I asked for, I asked for an apple."

No you didn't.

So what I'm saying is... you don't understand what it is you're asking for.

Instanced housing! I want Instanced housing! Yeah everyone wants their own person housing instance! When are we getting instanced housing.
For years and years these requests come in, and if they take them seriously, eventually we're going to get instanced housing via duty instances.

For the first part I agree there is more likely to be a comprise solution than what people want exactly (they're going to get a plum, even if they ask exactly for the apple); however, the second the part if people asked for something specific and didn't get it (even if it's entirely impractical) wouldn't change that what given was not asked for. I've been fairly transparent in my belief of what will happen, or that I think what is being asked for is not easy, not even sort of easy, but an exceptionally costly task that should be done right from the beginning because at any other time is just even more pain. I'm not under the illusion Yoshida can snap his fingers and get it done.

Simply I think there were some manipulations (perhaps entirely on accident, I believe you when you said what I meant), and I also find it very frustrating for hyper confidence on what SE can and can't do or the value of what others feel. Very much the only thing that is certain is uncertainty, and that we shouldn't be saying what SE can and can't do or if players should or shouldn't want something (last bit being more of a general statement I see, not particularly to you). You know this of me very well as we had similar talk in the Reaper thread, where people were saying to myself and others that Reaper just wont happen, it can't happen, things related to the void are impossible, etc, etc, such confidence on something that clearly was wrong. Now I think it's fair if someone was like "I don't really want another dark class, or I'm concerned about the lore if they did do that" but overconfidence plus an accidental shift in someone else message certainly had me go "no, hang on- they literally didn't say that, they clearly and obviously meant this other thing, and on top of that do you truly know or are you simply making an educated guess? If it's an educated guess, even a dang good one, it shouldn't be sold as fact". I've always been this way though, reaper, beast tribe, summoner, whatever- regularly defending points, sometimes ones I don't even believe in, simply because there was a shift in someone's message or an over assumption. To be fair I entirely believe you didn't mean to shift it (from other posts with you I don't think that's something you'd try to do) and you really meant to say what you just said now, but if you shift it and then someone else uses that- it's really not fair nor will it continue to paint and accurate message. I remember in the whole summoner thing long ago there were like 5 or 7 people who were absolutely convinced I was asking for full size primals (and that it was lore impossible to have anything other than egi), to the point I had to quote all 50 posts in that thread of myself to prove someone had made up an inaccurate representation and then others carried it.

It may not matter here, but we should always try to preserve someone else's intent, and of course my personal pet peeve that people should really avoid prescribing what FFIXIV developers can and can't do with their game. Part of that is of course they can offer plums instead of apples to players, who can choose to like it or not and when they're upset SE could be like "I don't care". Obviously not a perfect strategy depending on the audience they're hitting with it, but WoW has tried it a few times (not that it seems to be working well for them... :P).

For some there is hope FFXIV will have instanced housing, I personally think that'll never happen (to the degree people are using that terminology for), but that the team is going to make Sanctuaries as a sort of best offer comprise that I think, and sincerely hope, many will appreciate and will work for many. My vision on the conversation has pretty much been far in the future, I assume they'll be making a new mmo at some point (even if not yet) and they will begin far earlier than they announce (hopefully to prevent 1.0 again) and so I hope right from the start they go a different route. I believe in the compromise enough that I've even made significant posts and threads on such concepts, yet keeping the narrative clear and accurate, especially as feedback is important. I think some people have even tried to make it clearer as they were concerned when people just say instanced housing it's not clear enough, which is fine (I think it's clear, maybe I'm wrong lol).

So my summary since I know it's all long winding and multiple point stuff in the thread lol.

A. Even if likely, we shouldn't sell what SE can and can't do (likely, very likely, etc, that's fine, it's an educated guess then), especially in the future (which any new system will have to be, this means what we know for a fact now doesn't entirely relate to the future as fact, it adds an opportunity for educated guessing yes but because it is a future specific request as the nature of new things.. it means new things will be made to accommodate, so certainty is less than is "now"). This has happened many times and it is many times wrong. People regularly say what SE can and can't do with features, lore, whatever, "that's not possible X says Z" only to be clearly incorrect later. The firm understanding of now does not entirely predicate what the future may entail. Only SE knows what SE is going to do / can do / wants to do, and they have said something can't be done (and true at the time) but figured it out later, just like the person explaining programing and the mountains of work something might be to do now but if they wanted they might be able to work on it slowly over very long periods of time and suddenly impossible went to not (or alternatively spend buckets and buckets of money and talent), or occasionally they just don't even know themselves yet what they're going to do (as you can see sometimes they shift design goals slightly to accommodate players)

B. I knew what the player you quoted wanted, knew it wasn't what you said, and wanted it to be clear that they're in their right to ask for something that doesn't exist yet. However of course I do agree that you can be like "that most likely will never happen". But to say what they said they want is something they didn't say they want.. well that is the main thing that started this for me lol (though like I said as your clarification I believe your intent, wasn't to change that they said they wanted but to point out what will likely be a response of their request- the difference is important even if it seems small at the time, narratives over time can go far off course from small frays in the beginning). What they said is what they meant, and what was "said" that they said- was not it. What they want may not happen, but that is besides the point of what was stated.

C. I believe SE would have an interesting situation with FC only areas, as there would be a lot more people, but given our current realty the value seems misplaced and given the current themepark design there also just seems better systems overall (such systems seem better for sandbox like environments). It's obviously mostly an "imo" but to say I'm not impressed with the housing system would be an understatement (again objects, the creativity of players, pretty good, though in other systems, loosening of the chains, it could be even better, like removing the z axis restrictions and allowing players toggle collision when placing objects). I understand changes to such a deep and complicated system (sits on many other systems) is not simple, easy, or cheap, I don't even fully expect they will do much, I assume Sanctuaries is a fairly spendy but more realistic compromise they're attempting for players, and for myself I think it's important this particular system (housing, sanctuary seems potentially cool) is not given reproduction rights in the future (which of course SE can be like "yeah whatever, I don't care what you say" lol, but at least I tried then).

[Elissar]

The only real fix would be going full instanced housing.

And they aren't backing from wards since they wanna insist on the "community" aspect - even if you barelly meet someone on the wards, and when you do, there is no interaction at all.

Perfect World made something closer to your ideal...from a technical perspective, yes, it works fine. However, back in the days when i was on a FC i met our neighbors randomly and had an amazing time of RP.
SE vision is not that bad...but it's a rare event unfortunately.

[Lunalepsy]

Look, I fully understand why home ownership in this game is restricted:

1. FFXIV seems to struggle with funky data restrictions, so it's no surprise that housing has limitations, too. And...
   
2. If houses weren't in such short supply (let's just say that there were infinite wards, with new plots spawning all the time) then neighborhoods would quickly see huge die-offs as people who unsubbed lost access to their homes (or, worse yet, kept them in perpetuity, with the houses becoming dead, unlived-in shells), but new buyers favored 'fresh' wards where there was more activity (something exactly like this happening in LotRO, and it was absolutely brutal to visit the housing areas to see 1-2 active homes in a neighborhood with 20+ plots).

... I get it - some restrictions are necessary. But what we have right now just cannot be the best balance possible; not with the thousands of fresh arrivals in Eorzea who actually want to dip a toe (or more than just a toe) into the possibilities associated with home-ownership. I realize that the likely release of the Ishgarde wards may momentarily alleviate the mad crush to pick-off an open plot in one of the existing neighborhoods, but at this point it's looking like slapping a band-aid on a missing limb - it isn't going to do much to solve the greater problem.

What's most possibly aggravating is that, as with the restriction on glamours, the housing shortage is something that gets talked about a lot by players, but seems to continuously be as low a priority as can be for the admins. And... that's just not a good thing. Housing is one of those pretty unique (or at least polished and attractive) aspects of FFXIV that we use to talk-up the game to friends and relatives - it's a selling point. But how can it actually be a selling point when it remains essentially unattainable to the bulk of the playerbase?

Too many resources, other things take priority, not enough storage capacity for all the data, etc. The list goes on!

[GeminiReed]

You lose the wards, but you double up on all of the individual instances, because instead of just having indoors, you now have indoors and outdoors.
So how would this actually solve anything? just as many instances (if not more), just as much server strain (if not more).

Arguably not unless their instancing code would make Cthulu run in terror.

The existing wards are likely some of the heaviest weight instances out there due to having to load the customizable exteriors of each property. Worse, they're permanently loaded despite being mostly ghost towns. Contrast that with singles that can be loaded and unloaded as needed. I'd argue that model would place far less strain on the server resources per house.

[Catwho]

Expanding apartments to be multi story /expandable with gardening would alleviate some of the demand. Many people want a house just to have a house, but a lot more want a house to do stuff with, and apartments are inherently more limited than their physical house counterparts.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

Because some devs are just too stubborn with their ideas sometimes.
And they chew on more than they can swallow. Admitting that requieres being humble sometimes and well, some people just don't truly have that in them.


So the guy really WANTED the wards, even if since even before housing was added players called the shortage problem, then the pricing mess, the non-solutions off adding more wards each few years and an universally hated decay to the final nail on the housing coffin: Apartments, literally throwing the towel.

[ForteNightshade]

to be fair, there would be a lot less people wanting houses if they arent limited anymore. people want to have rare limited things. and they cant show of their houses if housing is instanced.

Sure they could. You can visit people's houses in other MMOs in a similar manner to how we zone into wards. The major difference is the house "instance" closes whenever someone isn't there, which removes the server strain FFXIV has to deal with as our wards are continuously active. Furthermore, limited mechanics are a terrible system because it only breeds jealousy. We have patches where the devs go on and on about new housing additions that will only serve to piss off far more players than they'll intrigue simply due to how few houses are actually available. This is precisely why they've been so reluctant to add things like gardens or public workshops. They know putting those resources into a broken system that gets complained about constantly will net a sizeable backlash.