Former WoW player: Suggested changes to FFXIV Raiding end-game

[Alxyzntlct]

IF they EVER EVER listen to you on point number 4 I promise you that is the day I quit FF14 for good. You quit WoW in Cata but some of us kept playing passed that and watched Blizzard listen to guys like you who wanted to spice up gear because they get bored and want to make the end game a living hell for the other 99% of the playerbase who does not raid log.

Yoshi P said multiple time in the last few months we are not going to see hard 4 man content because put simply people are bad and it puts too much responsibility on healers to carry the groups and then reinforces the need for META comps with DPS builds.

I strongly suggest you go check out WoW and see how your suggestions have all but destroyed that MMO. Also most of coils was basically a hallway with some trash and then a boss. That sounds like pure nostalgia talking there.

They have tried to give us stuff like that recently with the bigger 24 man raids but I doubt it is going to happen on the 8 man raid size.

I agree with Puremallace here on Point #4, big time. The endgame raiding scene ruined WoW for me and led to the singularly most toxic online experiences I've ever seen, and any steps in that direction will result in me dropping this game in a heartbeat. I'm absolutely loving it right now because of INCLUSIVENESS, while Point #4, and for that matter, Point #3, both will 100% lead to what's been happening in WoW for the last several years which is all about EXCLUSIVENESS:
- More challenge levels means more gearing-up options
- Gearing-up allows the most hardcore tryhard crowd to gear up the fastest
- Said crowd then begins gating access to endgame content in order to ensure their playtimes are not impacted (gotta keep that dopamine going hard n' fast)
- And eventually only a small portion of the playerbase will actually partake in and enjoy the majority of those additional challenge levels

I came to this game because I liked the sound of how accessible everything is. Once I'm done taking my time and enjoying all of the prior-content the game has to offer, I'm looking forward to delving into the harder endgame content because it doesn't sound like it requires treating it like a 2nd job (despite how some folks in these forums seem to want to make it into). I strongly feel that any efforts to really expand upon it further will create the same toxic atmosphere that exists in WoW now and result in fewer people even wanting to partake in the harder content, not inspire more people to want to try it out.

[Skiros]

Good! Hopefully they implement all of OP's feedback so the people who yell that they'll quit will actually quit.

[Ath192]

Yeah I think they should implement all of these ideas. And for the people that do not want any difficulty to get introduced into the game or fear getting lost even though they can press the map key bind and literally see a map of the dungeon layout they should also add an option to simply run the dungeon with no enemies or bosses and also GPS style way marks so they make sure they know where they are going, They can also be accompanied by the trusts that can run along with them. That way they can just run through the dungeon with no danger or possibility of getting lost and they can just see the cutscenes at the end and move on with the MSQ.

I think they can cater to those who like combat and those who don't, they already have the explorer mode set up for dungeons so it shouldn't be hard for them. That way they don't have to compromise the dungeons to the point where no one is happy with them.

I also think the rewards should be equal for both, that way they wont complain and you get people who actually want to fight in dungeons and raids. Truth be told skill/knowledge makes a good player in this game so I could care less if they are running in a fully augmented tomestone set at endgame.

There's no point in forcing combat on players that dont want any difficulty.

[Puremallace]

Good! Hopefully they implement all of OP's feedback so the people who yell that they'll quit will actually quit.

If you want to kill Final Fantasy 14 overnight go ahead and do any of those suggestions. One of the most major attractions to this MMO is the ability to swap jobs easily. Apparently you have forgotten you also need to gear out those jobs each patch cycle that increases ilvl and Square Enix sure as hell does their patches at a much quicker cycle then Blizzard.

You would kill one of the most major attractions to this MMO overnight to appease an EXTREME minority of the community that admits they raid log and unsub in between patches. If you are hard up for everything the OP just listed then by all means go play WoW because they have all of that except the dungeon exploration stuff.

I do agree that the dungeon exploration stuff and formulaic formating of the dungeons makes them all look the same and standard.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Yeah I think they should implement all of these ideas. And for the people that do not want any difficulty to get introduced into the game or fear getting lost even though they can press the map key bind and literally see a map of the dungeon layout they should also add an option to simply run the dungeon with no enemies or bosses and also GPS style way marks so they make sure they know where they are going, They can also be accompanied by the trusts that can run along with them. That way they can just run through the dungeon with no danger or possibility of getting lost and they can just see the cutscenes at the end and move on with the MSQ.

I think they can cater to those who like combat and those who don't, they already have the explorer mode set up for dungeons so it shouldn't be hard for them. That way they don't have to compromise the dungeons to the point where no one is happy with them.

I also think the rewards should be equal for both, that way they wont complain and you get people who actually want to fight in dungeons and raids. Truth be told skill/knowledge makes a good player in this game so I could care less if they are running in a fully augmented tomestone set at endgame.

There's no point in forcing combat on players that dont want any difficulty.

Uhh, this doesn't effect regular dungeons at all. This is about savage. And none of this adds difficulty. One just increases enemy hp, and the others just add annoyances.

[Ath192]

Uhh, this doesn't effect regular dungeons at all. This is about savage. And none of this adds difficulty. One just increases enemy hp, and the others just add annoyances.

Did you actually read the Original post on this thread? Especially 1 and 3?

And that's correct, my suggestions are to appease the people who do not enjoy combat, and that way, once they are taken care of with their own priorities, the dev team will be free to implement challenging combat scenarios/raids/dungeons, that do not yield different rewards but are there for people who enjoy being challenged.

What is annoying to you may be awesome design to someone else. So it is important to recognize that your own taste doesn't determine whether something is actually annoying or not. And quite frankly more things to explore in dungeons wouldn't be deemed annoying by most people I would wager, especially if it can be ignored or skipped by the uninterested folks.

[Cebo]

- More challenge levels means more gearing-up options
- Gearing-up allows the most hardcore tryhard crowd to gear up the fastest

I specifically mentioned that challenges should solely be for cosmetics and prestige items -- things like titles, minions, and mounts. Not for gear progression. I'm not espousing increasing grinds for end-game content, I'm asking for more challenges. As is, when you reach end-game, it just boils down to a braindead easy 4-man dungeon roulette for tomestones, weekly 24-man that is none too challenging, and then a much steeper increase in difficulty with 8-man Savage/Extremes. I actually really enjoy the difficulty of savages/extremes, but they come few and far between. Having prestige items and challenges associated with a scaling 4-man dungeon or 8-man raid allows the end-game to have more breadth. Similar to how Palace of the Dead scales. And people still try to challenge PotD to Floor 200 solely for the Necromancer title.

As for my 4th point, I figured this'd be the most controversial. I can't attest to what happened with WoW post Cata, except from what I read. And it sounds like a nightmare of complicated systems on top of systems and borrowed power. But that doesn't mean SE should play it super safe and not introduce more gear customization options. For the past 6 years, we've had the same raid gear + tomestone gear, and while they introduced new sub-stats like Tenacity and Direct Hit, the meta still ends up prioritizing Crit above all else. There used to be a time BLM's had an option to go a Spellspeed spec vs Crit spec, and that simple diversity was a lot more interesting than what we've had. Hell, in ARR, we didn't even have materia slots on dungeon gear, so it's not like the SE devs are against small incremental changes.

I think introducing more interesting materia (or at least increasing the viability of Skill/Spellspeed, Determination, and to a lesser extent Direct Hit) is not going to turn this into a hardcore WoW mindset like you guys are proclaiming. Set bonuses or a trinket slot that gives us a new Duty Action like in Bozja would be awesome and fun additions to the game imo. Yes, all this would mean it would be harder to balance jobs, but I actually trust the SE team is capable of doing so.

[Caitlyn]

1) Dungeon design has become more boring with each successive expansion. I am not talking about the aesthetic or music, which has improved tenfold. I am strictly talking about the design. Whereas in ARR we had unique dungeons like Haukke Manor and Qarn, with multiple side/secret paths and mobs that had to be interrupted or prioritized quickly (ie. bees), SB and ShB dungeons have become incredibly linear with wall-to-wall pulls to each boss. While I understand that over time people would speed run dungeons in the most efficient way, the current formulaic dungeon design leads to a stale experience.

2) Raid design too has simply turned into boss arenas, with no dungeon to actually explore. The boss encounters themselves are great, but I have not felt the same sense of wonder exploring a raid, as I did in Coils. It's sad that after 8 years playing this game, nothing has topped the experience of first venturing into Icecrown Citadel in WoW.

3) 4-man dungeons and Savage raids need scaling difficulty. Savage is challenging, but since they are now designed to be cleared in initial crafting gear, they are completed rather quickly in a patch cycle, leaving very little to do for months on end. SE can take a page from Blizzard's book and introduce a scaling + system; ie. if you clear a dungeon/raid, you can then attempt a +1 version that scales enemy health/damage (eg. reverse echo), and then +2, and so on. Rewards for these challenges could include additional tomestones, titles, minions, and mounts.

4) Gear stats are very boring. Besides glamour, there is no excitement to end-game gear when it's only a slight stat improvement, and every materia meld is prioritized for Crit. I would love for more interesting materia options (new competitive sub-stats or enchant procs), set bonuses, or even a trinket slot. I understand balance is an issue. But I also don't think that should excuse SE from not even attempting to make more interesting gear options. They definitely have the creativity in them, as Bozjan has shown. We lack that carrot on a stick to keep playing end-game.

1) Yes. Dungeons are always 3 bosses with 4 trash groups in between. Better dungeons were Brayflox HM, Dzemael and Bardams Mettle. I would love to see more variety in dungeons (maybe just one boss, or 5 or bigger mob groups). But on the other hand, many players dont want to put effort during dungeon runs. Thats why we have now a wall-to-wall system. I would wish, that they would put more dungeons into the Duty Roulette: Expert. At the moment, running the same 2 dungeons gets repetitive.

2) I m okay with having Savage Raids as Boss fights. I hate trash groups in savage raids.

3) Please no. Dont you dare to suggest a + system to FFXIV with keystones and stuff... . No. Like in WoW, it will spread toxicity.

4) I wish some sub stats may scale better. Crit and DH are everywhere. But thats because stats like accuarcy are removed. A bit more variety yes. But dont make huge changes to the gear.


This FFXIV. Not WoW. It should stay FFXIV and not become your new WoW. I dont want that WoW-players now ruining this game, like they did with WoW before.

[Cebo]

2) I m okay with having Savage Raids as Boss fights. I hate trash groups in savage raids.

3) Please no. Dont you dare to suggest a + system to FFXIV with keystones and stuff... . No. Like in WoW, it will spread toxicity.

- Yeah, tbh I hate trash too . As another poster suggested though, they could at least diversify the boss arenas so they aren't all circle/squares. What if one was a tunnel that you descended, or facing a boss while you scaled a tower? Another example is the Phantom Train fight in Sigmascape. That's still one of my favorite fights, but it would've been such a unique boss if you also had to traverse the train as part of the encounter. Instead, it's just another square arena.

- I think the + system has merit, but it's the limited keys that create the toxicity. People could then challenge it for challenge's sake.

[VirusOnline]

Disclaimer - I actually quit WoW back in Cataclysm, and have been playing FFXIV since day 1 of ARR 2.0. Sorry for the clickbait title! I absolutely love this game for its story, its world, and much prefer the gameplay over WoW's combat system.

But I wanted to give my thoughts as someone who was part of a semi-hardcore raiding guild in WoW, and where I feel FFXIV's end-game raiding falls short. My static cleared all of Coils pre-nerf, but with each successive expansion, we usually get bored after clearing the first raid tier, drop off from the game, only to come back prior to the next expansion's release. I know Yoshi-P has stated he doesn't mind if people take breaks like this, but it's a detriment when end-game content droughts can create such quick burnouts like this. I think the reasons for this are as follows:


1) Dungeon design has become more boring with each successive expansion. I am not talking about the aesthetic or music, which has improved tenfold. I am strictly talking about the design. Whereas in ARR we had unique dungeons like Haukke Manor and Qarn, with multiple side/secret paths and mobs that had to be interrupted or prioritized quickly (ie. bees), SB and ShB dungeons have become incredibly linear with wall-to-wall pulls to each boss. While I understand that over time people would speed run dungeons in the most efficient way, the current formulaic dungeon design leads to a stale experience.

The mechanics of old. The early dungeons were what I like to call an infodump. You learned your utility, your class, how to dodge, basic spells and combos.
After 6 years and all classes maxed out, I want to demolish. I am the godsdamned warrior of darkness.
But fine, imagine we did make a max level Haukke or Qarn. Better players would have to carry lesser/inexperienced players. Dungeon roulettes, which are supposed to be a quick daily, are turned into an 1hr+ pepemode.
Even in ESO, people have the ability to explore but most do not.
Roulette are baseline activities and should stay that way.

2) Raid design too has simply turned into boss arenas, with no dungeon to actually explore. The boss encounters themselves are great, but I have not felt the same sense of wonder exploring a raid, as I did in Coils. It's sad that after 8 years playing this game, nothing has topped the experience of first venturing into Icecrown Citadel in WoW.

Yeah, that wonder wanes.
As someone who did raid ICC, Cata, MoP, the RP experience of killing mobs became an annoyance each weekly clear.
Especially ICC. What a nightmare. It wasn't fun after the third month. I just wanted to kill the boss so I could weep at another week of no gear and no mount.

3) 4-man dungeons and Savage raids need scaling difficulty. Savage is challenging, but since they are now designed to be cleared in initial crafting gear, they are completed rather quickly in a patch cycle, leaving very little to do for months on end. SE can take a page from Blizzard's book and introduce a scaling + system; ie. if you clear a dungeon/raid, you can then attempt a +1 version that scales enemy health/damage (eg. reverse echo), and then +2, and so on. Rewards for these challenges could include additional tomestones, titles, minions, and mounts.

Yes, they do. But SE tends the wounds of those who are easily traumatized. Also, how dare you try to exclude people an induce more trauma.
On a serious note, SE typically does not like the idea of rewarding highly sought after items for higher levels of play (read as skill). It's why the only thing Ultimate gives is a shiny weapon.
While I do like a moderate amount of exclusivity, that is a WoW thing and should stay and die with WoW.

4) Gear stats are very boring. Besides glamour, there is no excitement to end-game gear when it's only a slight stat improvement, and every materia meld is prioritized for Crit. I would love for more interesting materia options (new competitive sub-stats or enchant procs), set bonuses, or even a trinket slot. I understand balance is an issue. But I also don't think that should excuse SE from not even attempting to make more interesting gear options. They definitely have the creativity in them, as Bozjan has shown. We lack that carrot on a stick to keep playing end-game.

Bozjan gear is born purely out of Eureka's idea of "well if they're gonna be here for the long haul, guess we'll make a sonic belt". I'd hardly call it interesting and more of a hard pass.
Were it me, I'd remove materia. It has no standing anymore. Ever since Stormblood, materia has just taken this downward dive of uselessness both in the market and the gear. All for the sake of - join me now - inclusiveness.
This inclusiveness includes no advantage over the other at end game. This is a balance game, not a pvp game.

People who often burn out at end game, imo, find there's nothing else to do because
1) they rush it because of fomo (fear of missing out)
2) they play with only the same good players. If you want a challenge, PF is right there
3) end game means ONLY savage/ultimate. PotD ? HoH ? Bozja notes ? Cards ? Mahjong ? there are many challenging carrots, but many savage raiders think it beneath them
5) literally spend every single day in raid tier until all bosses are dead and then complain there's nothing now to do.

Every raid has an end. Every raid will come to bore you. No game can continue to entertain you with an endless supply of savage content. If they did, god how boring and dreadful would that be.
The 14 boss raids of WoW Siege of Orgrimmar will never be missed.