Former WoW player: Suggested changes to FFXIV Raiding end-game

[DPZ2]

...snip...

Face it, there isn't a single stat that changes gameplay for a specific job to such an extent that it matters in this MMO or any other that I've ever played (and that list is pretty long, and includes 10 years of WoW). In WoW, your talents affect gameplay not your stats. This game doesn't use a talent system.

Players ignore skill and spell speed in this game because the meta for raw DPS regards it to be way below MAIN STAT, CRIT, DH or DET in rank of importance when choosing gear.

[Shurrikhan]

Strength. Tenacity. Dexterity. Intelligence. Mind.

These are already built into the game and are 'job specific'. Gear for a particular job swims in these stats. The stats change depending on which job you're currently playing.

TL;DR The game already has what you're requesting.

No, the game has nothing like what was being requested.

The example was Mastery, a stat available to every spec and useful to every spec, but the effects of which varies by spec. That has nothing to do with Power-but-for-melee-other-than-Ninja, Power-but-for-Ninja-and-Ranged, Power-but-for-DPS-Casters, and Power-but-for-healers. Those aren't job-specific effects. They're the same effect. They're just convoluted to extend time spent grinding.

A closer example here would be if, say, you had a stat which increased proc rates or resource generation by a job-specific percentage (as to leave it balanced near Crit and DHit), or which added a variably intense mechanic to one's playflow.

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Personally, I'd be cool with just having actual choice in secondary stats and a bit more % effectiveness per stat point. But that requires some further polish.

Jobs vary pretty significantly in the portion of their damage that stems from oGCDs. That's a whole portion on which SkS/SpS (which should be consolidated into simple Haste rather than continuing to uniquely screw over PLD and DRK) has no contribution. So either Haste needs to be scaled differently per job, to provide equal value to the stat, or there needs to at least be a compensatory mechanic. I'd say the latter will probably be the worse option, though, as most compensatory mechanic concepts can only function by watering down the distinction between stats. There's also the imbalance in MP efficiency, though that could be easily solved by placing MP ticks on a rate equal to player GCD, rather than on a 3-second server tick.

Similarly, increase both the peaks of secondary stats and the between-expansion valleys. That's not to say the maximum Crit chance we can achieve by the final patch should increase from expansion to expansion, but merely that we should both be able to hit some significant peak in %Haste or %Crit, etc., by each final patch and that those percentiles shouldn't dive so sharply with the new expansion. In the end, secondary stats are at least as much about having some sense of impactful choice by which to play a bit more in the style we want (i.e., about the actual percentages in play) as the sense of power progression for a given expansion's endgame (i.e., the increase in percentages or, more importantly, the damage thus provided).

Heck, I wouldn't even mind losing Materia as it stands presently. For how much it bloats our inventory, it provides little more than a constant, dull gil-sink. I'd far sooner rather have a single, separate slot by which to just drop in just one customizable, any-job Materia for an oversided dollop of secondary stat of my choice -- say, adding Haste until X, and then Crit. Voila, rather than micromanaging gear to be able to play with the rotation I want, I can just choose it then and there. Choiceful, impactful, convenient.

[VelKallor]

it provides little more than a constant, dull gil-sink.

Um...you DO know you can get clusters to buy materia?

by a reboot of the original game that's turned out to be more popular than what the game has become.

WOW classic has failed, the servers are deserted, and even their TBC remake has been a flop.

[Shurrikhan]

Um...you DO know you can get clusters to buy materia?

You realize there is a gil fee for non-80-crafters to actually attach said materia?

And adding a scaling challenge mode to dungeons, where the only reward is extra tomestones, titles, or cosmetics, doesn't affect the casual playerbase. It'd solely be an optional challenge, providing more end-game content to those that want to partake in it, and NOT at the expense of casuals missing out on gear/story. If people don't care for it, that's perfectly fine. They can simply ignore it, just as I ignore crafting or mahjong cause it's not my cup of tea. Why deny the option of having challenge modes to other players?

They could, but that'd be far too efficient and accessible. We here at XIV would much rather split any further development towards casual and non-casual players, as if they were some strict binary, with the likes of quickly-dead minigames like Mahjong and barely-touched (though still quite lucrative, and actually more done than the full BLU experience, for instance) Ultimate encounters, respectively. /s

[Yagrush]

No, the game has nothing like what was being requested.

The example was Mastery, a stat available to every spec and useful to every spec, but the effects of which varies by spec. That has nothing to do with Power-but-for-melee-other-than-Ninja, Power-but-for-Ninja-and-Ranged, Power-but-for-DPS-Casters, and Power-but-for-healers. Those aren't job-specific effects. They're the same effect. They're just convoluted to extend time spent grinding.

It feels like you're the only one that actually read my post and replies. Cheers, fam.

[DPZ2]

No, the game has nothing like what was being requested.

The example was Mastery, a stat available to every spec and useful to every spec, but the effects of which varies by spec. That has nothing to do with Power-but-for-melee-other-than-Ninja, Power-but-for-Ninja-and-Ranged, Power-but-for-DPS-Casters, and Power-but-for-healers. Those aren't job-specific effects. They're the same effect. They're just convoluted to extend time spent grinding..

Ah. It suddenly becomes clear.

Sure let's bring in Mastery as a stat. And also change the way your character works so that you can take only one class/job per character, with three different specs for that job and talent trees, with Mastery changing depending on your spec, since that's the way it works in that game. Let's also make it so players can ignore the story entirely, and add in dungeons with multiple levels of difficulty. And, finally, let's redo the graphics so that it looks as great as that other game ...

Oh, wait, you can already get a subscription to that other game, which is not this game.

If you want to play WoW, play WoW. If you want to play FFXIV, play FFXIV. Or play both. There will be absolutely nobody mixing peanut butter with broccoli in this game.

[DPZ2]

snip

In case it wasn't clear, Mastery provides 'spice' for a single specialty (spec) in a class with multiple specs. The Hunter spec "Beast Master" has a mastery that increases pet damage. The Hunter spec "Marksmanship" doesn't really use a pet, and instead increases range and damage. A player can only have one of three specialties at any time. The Mastery on their gear changes effects when they change specs. There is a single set of effects for each of the three specialties for each class.

In a game with zero specialties for a job, it loses it's ability to bring flavor to the game, and can easily be subsumed into your main job stat without having to add yet another stat to gear.

[Yagrush]

If you want to play WoW, play WoW. If you want to play FFXIV, play FFXIV. Or play both. There will be absolutely nobody mixing peanut butter with broccoli in this game.

Imagine if Yoshida had this kind of mentality

Good ideas can be extracted from WoW. This shouldn't be novel nor surprising. So I don't get the allergy to the idea. Specially when you never brought an argument against the concept of a job altering stat other than "hurdur it came from WoW"

[Shurrikhan]

Sure let's bring in Mastery as a stat. And also change the way your character works so that you can take only one class/job per character, with three different specs for that job and talent trees, with Mastery changing depending on your spec, since that's the way it works in that game. Let's also make it so players can ignore the story entirely, and add in dungeons with multiple levels of difficulty. And, finally, let's redo the graphics so that it looks as great as that other game

Do you have zero footing? It takes all of half an idea for you to slide down a ten-step slippery slope.

You can have balanced secondary stats without the game turning into WoW.

You can have secondary stats be more impactful without the game turning into WoW.

You can have a job-specific stat (which is not the same thing as job- or role-exclusive names for the exact same effect) that allows one to better engage in some core component of that job to the degree they desire... without the game turning into WoW.

The basic concept of <a more interesting secondary stat> in no way forces WoW into your game than, say, the ability to have your crafting menu open at the same time as you speak to a vendor, not having to spend 4 items to buy an item that you combine with another 10 items bought with another currency to then transform into a further item (i.e., current tomestone weapons), or the ability to queue ground-targeting skills.

In case it wasn't clear, Mastery provides 'spice' for a single specialty (spec) in a class with multiple specs. The Hunter spec "Beast Master" has a mastery that increases pet damage. The Hunter spec "Marksmanship" doesn't really use a pet, and instead increases range and damage. A player can only have one of three specialties at any time. The Mastery on their gear changes effects when they change specs. There is a single set of effects for each of the three specialties for each class.

In a game with zero specialties for a job, it loses it's ability to bring flavor to the game, and can easily be subsumed into your main job stat without having to add yet another stat to gear.

Each spec functions as a job onto itself. Your job IS your specialty. In what way does Beastmasters having effect A, Marksmen having effect B, Masters of Arms having effect D, and Demonologists having effect Z make any difference, whether some share a base class or not, from Samurai having effect A, Dragoons effect B, Monks effect C, Summoners effect D, and Scholars effect E?

Is something so fundamentally different about Scholar and Summoner as jobs, just because they share a base class, compared to all the others in the game, that a Secondary Stat somehow can, fundamentally, only work for them? If not, your point is moot. It makes no difference whether we call them a spec, a job, a class, a profession, or whatever else. They are separately optimized.

[Kes13a]

I think the problem with #4 is that it starts promoting FOTM builds, and with the costs then imparted to pentamelding, it begins a very hard line between the "hardcore" min/max crowd and the rest of the players.

"oh, you have this slotted, well, only a loser does that, so you arent welcome in this group" or "oh, you only have two slots filled, well, you know, to be the best you need to pentameld"

So I guess at that point, what is considered a "meaningful" change? if its a change that can open the door to discrimination between play styles, I am firmly against it. as it stands now, for stats there is virtually zero difference between the top 1% of "hardcore raider types" and the rest of the population, and this is, despite what some may think, a good thing.

right now if anything, FFXIV caters to.. no one, and everyone. we all get parts of what we want/need but no one group gets a full desire list fulfilled, so no one is singled out as.. ."special". This is a good thing and keeps the game from being that other game. because that other game, is a job, it is not entertainment. FFXIV retains the fun.