The Sad State of Dungeons

[Uvi_AUT]

Dungeons like AV are the minimum I wish they'd do with optional 4 or 8 man dungeon challenges. IMHO they should either be fixed-party only or have separate roulette categories so whiny players who like netflix'able content can just not run them.

I dont know that particular dungeon, but if its one you must do in order to advance the story, then no. If its an optional dungeon, then I would have no problem with it being hard.

[ssunny2008]

I dont know that particular dungeon, but if its one you must do in order to advance the story, then no. If its an optional dungeon, then I would have no problem with it being hard.

It´s one thing to have dungeons as a MSQ, but it´s another if they´re completely braindead. Of course ppl should enjoy the main story, but it doesn´t help anyone if you just run straight through the dungeon and spam aoe into a big pull. The core aspect "dungeon" fails completely in this game.

Other games did a way better job. Dungeons are a bit more challenging, but you get way better loot to prepare yourself for what is coming next. In some games they´re only optional, but promise rare items. Others do even have harder versions of the original ones to prepare yourself for raids.
But dungeons in FF14 has become a timewaste. I don´t need to run from an invisible wall to another, just to progress in the main story. It´s even a waste of time and efford from the devs. Building up beautiful environments noone will take care for unless you´ll get matched via daily roulette once again in those dungeons. SHB dungeons are even the worst i´ve ever seen in any MMORPG. Battle for Norvrandt ftw!
They´re just boring and don´t bring anything to the player. Then those players start to raid, suck and cry "too hard, pls nerf"... no wonder if you just played low budget content before and relied on the simplified classes and mechs.

(And tbh... i´ve never played any other MMO where loot has become so useless. I can run with my level 70 gear easily to level 80. A dungeon might takes 2 minutes longer because i miss stats for DPS, but that´s all. Even in old Roulette - Raids with an Alt i can sit on 20k max HP while the rest of the party has 40k+. I´ll still survive and do my job. It´s ridiculous.)

[Jirah]

I dont know that particular dungeon, but if its one you must do in order to advance the story, then no. If its an optional dungeon, then I would have no problem with it being hard.

Then do it with trusts? This is a ongoing trend but I hate when the game suppresses it’s creativity to try to be too broad.

New flash! Their are no optional dungeons anymore! Which probably won’t change sadly and that should be the call to really try to make dungeons amazing not make them even easier. With all the mechs and junk why bother if it’s this remedial? Why even have mechanics why even have dungeons ?

[ItMe]

New flash! Their are no optional dungeons anymore!

... huh?
What about The Twinning and Akadaemia Anyder?

[Absimiliard]

As much as I enjoy engaging gameplay, the last thing I want is a bump to dungeon complexity. Not for lack of an interest in having more to do as a tank or anything like that, but simply because adding complexity to something that the roulettes are going to shove me into with a bunch of random, very likely new, players greatly increases my odds of having to requeue through no fault of my own. I've even taken to playing paladin, something I used to outright hate, over my preferred tanking job simply to be able to avoid wipes when the healers inevitably kill themselves by standing in the very clearly marked bad on the ground.

Now if we're talking optional stuff? Sure, throw it at me. I'd love to see the game gain something similar to WoW's M+ content, where you take on more challenging dungeons and are rewarded with gear appropriate to the difficulty of the task you faced.

[ssunny2008]

As much as I enjoy engaging gameplay, the last thing I want is a bump to dungeon complexity. Not for lack of an interest in having more to do as a tank or anything like that, but simply because adding complexity to something that the roulettes are going to shove me into with a bunch of random, very likely new, players greatly increases my odds of having to requeue through no fault of my own. I've even taken to playing paladin, something I used to outright hate, over my preferred tanking job simply to be able to avoid wipes when the healers inevitably kill themselves by standing in the very clearly marked bad on the ground.

Now if we're talking optional stuff? Sure, throw it at me. I'd love to see the game gain something similar to WoW's M+ content, where you take on more challenging dungeons and are rewarded with gear appropriate to the difficulty of the task you faced.

This is actually the bad attitude the game sows in the ppl´s head. As i´ve said, imagine the game would force more from beginning. Those newcomers would learn way more than "don´t stand in the orange circle". Sadly i still meet ppl at 60 who can´t stack with the stack marker. But this is actually the games biggest issue. It doesn´t force anything, so ppl don´t even try to give their best until they come in contact to the raiding scene via friends or fc´s.
When i started MMORPG`s i was a newbie by myself. But i learned and learned and learned over the time. This is not needed in FF14 that much and it makes dungeons what they are. Boring af , someone will carry anyway.

[ItMe]

This is actually the bad attitude the game sows in the ppl´s head. As i´ve said, imagine the game would force more from beginning. Those newcomers would learn way more than "don´t stand in the orange circle". Sadly i still meet ppl at 60 who can´t stack with the stack marker. But this is actually the games biggest issue. It doesn´t force anything, so ppl don´t even try to give their best until they come in contact to the raiding scene via friends or fc´s.

Would harder dungeons force learning though?
I know I've inadvertently carried some thoroughly incompetent people through Savage, so I don't think "a bump to dungeon complexity" would make people learn.



Also would putting more of that learning upfront be the right place for it? After all, like you said

When i started MMORPG`s i was a newbie by myself. But i learned and learned and learned over the time.

I know if things were more complicated when I started I probably would have bounced. And helping some new friends through the game recently has showed me how much I'd forgotten of those new player struggles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the larger issue is that things don't become more complicated down the line after we've had a chance to learn and get accustomed to FF14 over time, and not that dungeons start simple.

[ssunny2008]

Would harder dungeons force learning though?
I know I've inadvertently carried some thoroughly incompetent people through Savage, so I don't think "a bump to dungeon complexity" would make people learn.



Also would putting more of that learning upfront be the right place for it? After all, like you said

I know if things were more complicated when I started I probably would have bounced. And helping some new friends through the game recently has showed me how much I'd forgotten of those new player struggles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the larger issue is that things don't become more complicated down the line after we've had a chance to learn and get accustomed to FF14 over time, and not that dungeons start simple.

The learning curve in FF14 is pretty slow and sometimes not even existend. Of course the first dungeon shouldn´t be a game killer, but having more complex dungeons within the time, which force the players to use their brain to beat the boss + a real reward and not just useless gear, would do a lot probably. But tbh, the first 3 are laughable even for newcomers and new skills appear way too late. Having bosses where you NEED to afk as non tank is a joke too.

I know a bunch of players who haven´t tried raiding for years or FF14 is their first MMORPG. Now they kill every tier and even prog ultimates, just because someone helped them a bit. They´re still casuals, but found fun to prog something.
It is a complete design flaw, that ppl are able to press "easy pls" buttons or run braindead through dungeons. Ppl will start the endgame, get fckd and say "It´s too hard for me, bye." , just because they haven´t learned anything on their long way. Dungeons and class quest should help the players to grow and they should prepare them for the next gamestep. But it just don´t happen.

(That players don´t use their brains and eyes, but checking out million guides for everything is another thing.)

EDIT: And yes, harder dungeons would definately cause player interactions with the group most of the time to learn, to talk about strategies, to give advice, whatever. If a newbie dies in a current dungeon, nobody tells "you should do XY". The boss will fall anyway and the newbie will go on with his MSQ without even thinking about his mistakes.

[ItMe]

Having bosses where you NEED to afk as non tank is a joke too.

I'm sorry, I fear you've lost me...
Which bosses are these?

It is a complete design flaw, that ppl are able to press "easy pls" buttons or run braindead through dungeons.

What buttons are these?

(That players don´t use their brains and eyes, but checking out million guides for everything is another thing.)

and are we still talking about dungeons here?

[ssunny2008]

I'm sorry, I fear you've lost me...
Which bosses are these?


What buttons are these?


and are we still talking about dungeons here?

1. A bunch of bosses can be solo´d by tanks and healers. But the supreme one is probably the slime in the coppermine. The afk one with the bomber. I´ve had some experienced friends who tried this game and stopped playing after doing the first 2-3 dungeons. Too less skills, to low budget.

2. If you fail any solo content you get the "easy / very easy" option since SHB. On the other hand you can ignore a lot content and go unsynced later. Or my fav is that you get the good old raidbuff after every wipe, even in current content since 2 months now?!
NPC runs with Thancred and Co. can´t fail too, they just take some time so.

3. Well it´s a sidefact which cause such braindead dungeons and other content too. Just ignore it.