The Sad State of Dungeons

[ICountFrom0]

Honestly? If I could trigger that dungeon by going to it and having it become a solo instance, with say, trusts? I'd do it, right now.

[SquigglesMajor]

With the influx of new players I've been getting a lot more low level content in my roulettes. Between replaying older content and watching newer players go through it for the first time it actually makes me a bit sad at the current formula of the game. The game is not bad mind you, there is a lot to love. But the game is definitely a product of the times. FFXIV has two sides to it. The single player MSQ content which has the grand story and exploration, then there is the actual multiplayer content that is very utilitarian. Dungeons are basically track fields that encourage you to sprint to each checkpoint and kill everything at once. AOE keeps getting buffed, tanks get infinite enmity from every little thing they do, and healers are able to sustain a tank just from their instant cast spells alone. Raids can be challenging for sure but I feel like they are very uninspired and boring. Oh let me guess a perfectly circular arena with an instant kill wall that is simply floating in the middle of nowhere.

I hate to say it, because the team clearly does what they can with it. You see sparks of cool ideas and set pieces in the background but it's all just set dressing. And it's very clear that the team is working around these limitations. They can't explore new ideas and complex environments. And I know why that is. The team tried to make a very unique arena in the coils of bahamut by having you fight in one of his claws. This idea is absolutely brilliant and I adore it so much. However the game is clearly not built to accommodate that kind of terrain during combat. It caused a lot of problems. Rather than fixing the problem the team decided to simply avoid it forever and only make generic, flat, perfectly square or circular arenas.

They are kind of trapped. On one hand they tried to make content with trash, and some travel to the raid boss. They tried making a weird arena and a lot of players don't want that. They like the hyper optimized meta. Content that is fast is better than content that is deep and involved. People want to be in and out of content in maybe 20 minutes max. You look at old content and you see all these really cool ideas that are never further explored or refined. I feel like if we aren't careful we're going to quickly devolve into WoW and optimize the fun out of everything.

[Jirah]

I dont know that particular dungeon, but if its one you must do in order to advance the story, then no. If its an optional dungeon, then I would have no problem with it being hard.

Then do it with trusts? This is a ongoing trend but I hate when the game suppresses it’s creativity to try to be too broad.

New flash! Their are no optional dungeons anymore! Which probably won’t change sadly and that should be the call to really try to make dungeons amazing not make them even easier. With all the mechs and junk why bother if it’s this remedial? Why even have mechanics why even have dungeons ?

[ItMe]

New flash! Their are no optional dungeons anymore!

... huh?
What about The Twinning and Akadaemia Anyder?

[Absimiliard]

As much as I enjoy engaging gameplay, the last thing I want is a bump to dungeon complexity. Not for lack of an interest in having more to do as a tank or anything like that, but simply because adding complexity to something that the roulettes are going to shove me into with a bunch of random, very likely new, players greatly increases my odds of having to requeue through no fault of my own. I've even taken to playing paladin, something I used to outright hate, over my preferred tanking job simply to be able to avoid wipes when the healers inevitably kill themselves by standing in the very clearly marked bad on the ground.

Now if we're talking optional stuff? Sure, throw it at me. I'd love to see the game gain something similar to WoW's M+ content, where you take on more challenging dungeons and are rewarded with gear appropriate to the difficulty of the task you faced.

[ssunny2008]

As much as I enjoy engaging gameplay, the last thing I want is a bump to dungeon complexity. Not for lack of an interest in having more to do as a tank or anything like that, but simply because adding complexity to something that the roulettes are going to shove me into with a bunch of random, very likely new, players greatly increases my odds of having to requeue through no fault of my own. I've even taken to playing paladin, something I used to outright hate, over my preferred tanking job simply to be able to avoid wipes when the healers inevitably kill themselves by standing in the very clearly marked bad on the ground.

Now if we're talking optional stuff? Sure, throw it at me. I'd love to see the game gain something similar to WoW's M+ content, where you take on more challenging dungeons and are rewarded with gear appropriate to the difficulty of the task you faced.

This is actually the bad attitude the game sows in the ppl´s head. As i´ve said, imagine the game would force more from beginning. Those newcomers would learn way more than "don´t stand in the orange circle". Sadly i still meet ppl at 60 who can´t stack with the stack marker. But this is actually the games biggest issue. It doesn´t force anything, so ppl don´t even try to give their best until they come in contact to the raiding scene via friends or fc´s.
When i started MMORPG`s i was a newbie by myself. But i learned and learned and learned over the time. This is not needed in FF14 that much and it makes dungeons what they are. Boring af , someone will carry anyway.

[ItMe]

This is actually the bad attitude the game sows in the ppl´s head. As i´ve said, imagine the game would force more from beginning. Those newcomers would learn way more than "don´t stand in the orange circle". Sadly i still meet ppl at 60 who can´t stack with the stack marker. But this is actually the games biggest issue. It doesn´t force anything, so ppl don´t even try to give their best until they come in contact to the raiding scene via friends or fc´s.

Would harder dungeons force learning though?
I know I've inadvertently carried some thoroughly incompetent people through Savage, so I don't think "a bump to dungeon complexity" would make people learn.



Also would putting more of that learning upfront be the right place for it? After all, like you said

When i started MMORPG`s i was a newbie by myself. But i learned and learned and learned over the time.

I know if things were more complicated when I started I probably would have bounced. And helping some new friends through the game recently has showed me how much I'd forgotten of those new player struggles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the larger issue is that things don't become more complicated down the line after we've had a chance to learn and get accustomed to FF14 over time, and not that dungeons start simple.

[ssunny2008]

Would harder dungeons force learning though?
I know I've inadvertently carried some thoroughly incompetent people through Savage, so I don't think "a bump to dungeon complexity" would make people learn.



Also would putting more of that learning upfront be the right place for it? After all, like you said

I know if things were more complicated when I started I probably would have bounced. And helping some new friends through the game recently has showed me how much I'd forgotten of those new player struggles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the larger issue is that things don't become more complicated down the line after we've had a chance to learn and get accustomed to FF14 over time, and not that dungeons start simple.

The learning curve in FF14 is pretty slow and sometimes not even existend. Of course the first dungeon shouldn´t be a game killer, but having more complex dungeons within the time, which force the players to use their brain to beat the boss + a real reward and not just useless gear, would do a lot probably. But tbh, the first 3 are laughable even for newcomers and new skills appear way too late. Having bosses where you NEED to afk as non tank is a joke too.

I know a bunch of players who haven´t tried raiding for years or FF14 is their first MMORPG. Now they kill every tier and even prog ultimates, just because someone helped them a bit. They´re still casuals, but found fun to prog something.
It is a complete design flaw, that ppl are able to press "easy pls" buttons or run braindead through dungeons. Ppl will start the endgame, get fckd and say "It´s too hard for me, bye." , just because they haven´t learned anything on their long way. Dungeons and class quest should help the players to grow and they should prepare them for the next gamestep. But it just don´t happen.

(That players don´t use their brains and eyes, but checking out million guides for everything is another thing.)

EDIT: And yes, harder dungeons would definately cause player interactions with the group most of the time to learn, to talk about strategies, to give advice, whatever. If a newbie dies in a current dungeon, nobody tells "you should do XY". The boss will fall anyway and the newbie will go on with his MSQ without even thinking about his mistakes.

[ItMe]

Having bosses where you NEED to afk as non tank is a joke too.

I'm sorry, I fear you've lost me...
Which bosses are these?

It is a complete design flaw, that ppl are able to press "easy pls" buttons or run braindead through dungeons.

What buttons are these?

(That players don´t use their brains and eyes, but checking out million guides for everything is another thing.)

and are we still talking about dungeons here?