How fitting

[ninninin]

DRK in...

Let pretend that Dissidia doesn't have XIV influence. Let pretend that all of this title was made by the same team. Blood Weapon doesn't mean LIFE DRAIN. I bring that up to show that what was belong to DRK has been taken to give to other tank.

I said

Life Drain ability on the other hand has been with DRK far longer.

I didn't say the first drk born with it. I like how you try to raise the fact that since life drain has been absent from DRK in some FF mean that life drain is not DRK's trait.

I just hate when someone insists that another game must play like their game, or decries all preferences otherwise despite showing little effort to parse out why their game's/prefererd version would actually be superior to the other apart from a vague and sometimes contradictory fixation on theme.

And in the end it boil down to "I just hate"

We have history, We have lore as reference. You on the other hand only have "I prefer" by your logic Black Mage could start summon Bahamut in the next game and there would be nothing wrong with it. You can say it in many way but at the end it like "I don't mind starbucks serve cola instead of coffee if it is tastier"

If you remodel the interior of the a ship and replace all the wood with the new one, is the same ship still the same ship? Yes, but only when you look at it from the outside.

If all of their members has been replaced and they start making rap instead of rock, Is ACDC still ACDC band? Yes, but only in name.

This isn’t an argument so save the energy. It isn’t about WAR, FF14, my point, or your point.

The thing is. FF14 has its own lore, much like most FF games in the franchise. Iconic things remain, but things are constantly changing to make the old feel new. It’s literally what they’ve been doing with almost every game. Even the names of spells change. Blizzard/blizzara/blizzaga from Blizzard/2/3 and back again.

It’s not about right or wrong here…it just is. Did you play FF7 remake? Almost unrecognizable from the original even though it’s titled REMAKE. I loved the original FF7 and was looking forward to a remake, with current graphics… I was sorely disappointed, but committed to it nonetheless. The game isn’t horrible for what it is, just completely different lore then expected. It’s just what SE does whether we like it or not.

It's not about right or wrong here...it just you love this, lore and everyone else who didn't think so be damned.

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

And it isn't just XI. Tactics which have iconic DRK came out 5 years before XI and that make it over 2 decades.

*snip*

We used to ask for it but it was extremely exhausting when you have new DRK goes against it. Self Sacrifice for benefit could work. It just that the new DRK in hw treat it same way with people treat the idea of going to space as something that never work.

Look at superbolide.

Or you could make darkside reduce max hp cap by xxx and reduce damage taken by xxx as well as increase damage dealt by xxx or gain other benefit to compensated. But come to think about it wasn't there a tank that have high hp that could choose to sacrifice the increase hp effect and damage reduction effect they could have for damage in the past? in a sense, Deliverance was already provided a way to self sacrifice your hp for damage.

Real DRK could work and could have been fun as well as require player skill. It just that the real DRK trait has been given to WAR and new DRK in hw think it is a fine trade. Little did they know about the fact that dev was looking to turn D-A-R-K-K-N-I-G-H-T to edgy BERSERKER since back then.

Let me be clear here : I wasn't against WAR have good ability but it mustn't come at he cost of Real DRK have to lose it so WAR could have it.

[DaulBan]

snip

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

[Kabooa]

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

Hey, can it wait until my popcorn is done?

[AC9Breaker]

lmao and people say I'm a troll. I think saying Thrill of Battle is the same as TBN is a bigger troll haha.

[Shurrikhan]

On this other scale... I would love and prefer that Dark Knight in FFXIV has the self-sacrificial Blood Magic that it has almost always had, but... that is never going to happen. I already gave up on Dark Knight, in that sense, as it will never be what I want it to be, whether that is similar to Dark Warrior, or similar to previous FF franchise Dark Knight versions... the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, is probably the most close that FFXIV Dark Knight will ever get to, and still fall short of, Blood Magic; which is the reason why I like the idea of Dark Knight actions with the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, which Ironically.. would go well with the self-sacrificial Blood Magic, much sorrow...

I honestly don't think there's any need to "give up on" HP-sacrificing skills/mechanics, especially if DRK also has access to lifesteal effects (and all the more so if they're very on demand, such as through a bankable Blood Weapon or whatnot). Complement the HP-sacrifice mechanic with even just, say, a single auto-save mechanic, like Living Dead activating automatically if you're struck by fatal damage (with 5+ minutes before that effect is available again), allowing you to essentially fall into negative HP for up to 10s and finally putting that long-requested 3D timer above your head, and I don't think healers would be jumping out of their skin over DRK being able to sacrifice HP.

I say that, because Ninninin aside, I have seen other Dark Knights that are mad about Warrior has convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, more than what Dark Knight does, and I have no idea how many Dark Knights feel that way... while.. say that both Subclasses, Dark Knight and Warrior, have the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect... Then come the complaints about the two being too similar, in another way than they already are, so either the complaints are ignored, which at this point is what I think may be better, or the complaints are addressed and one Subclass loses the effect in question.

I have to be the villain for one of the sides, when it comes to the decision of which Tank takes the loss, in which I chose to be the Villain for Warrior, as a personal opinion.

Again, I just can't think of that as any more sensible than "only one healer should ever have shields/HoTs/on-ally buffs".

that aside, my opinion is that Dark knight and Warrior should both have convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, and although I have no idea how to explain that for Warrior, where-as with Dark Knight I can just call it Blood Magic.

For WAR, it's actually more written into the flavor text / theme than for DRK. It's literally... the thrill of combat invigorating them. The more they can do, the more they can sustain themselves.

On that note, though, there's also little to no magic sword of vampirism/blood magic hoodoo in DRK's questlines. It's more about the psychology of it all, somewhat mirroring but still quite distinct from WAR's.

Let pretend that Dissidia doesn't have XIV influence.

Doesn't take much pretending, given its iterations as listed before came out in 2008 and 2012, and are a mere extension of Cecil's character itself, whereas XIV's came out in 2015.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

I honestly don't think there's any need to "give up on" HP-sacrificing skills/mechanics, especially if DRK also has access to lifesteal effects (and all the more so if they're very on demand, such as through a bankable Blood Weapon or whatnot). Complement the HP-sacrifice mechanic with even just, say, a single auto-save mechanic, like Living Dead activating automatically if you're struck by fatal damage (with 5+ minutes before that effect is available again), allowing you to essentially fall into negative HP for up to 10s and finally putting that long-requested 3D timer above your head, and I don't think healers would be jumping out of their skin over DRK being able to sacrifice HP.

By already given up on it, I just mean that I have no faith and little hope, that FFXIV's Dark Knight would ever be like that, even though it is what I want the most for FFXIV Dark Knight... I even have a extensive written digital note-folder, full of my ideas to re-design FFXIV Dark Knight, for it to have Blood Magic and self-sacrificial Blood Magic that work around each other, paired with offensive and defensive Dark Magic, and physical GreatSword artes.

While.. to speak of "like Living Dead activating automatically if you're struck by fatal damage", that is the exact way that I thought to, and made a idea to, re-design Living Dead, heh... I remember that I posted my Living Dead re-design idea in a thread about Living Dead, and I.. forgot whether or not I re-posted that in the recent "Dark Knight MegaThread".

Again, I just can't think of that as any more sensible than "only one healer should ever have shields/HoTs/on-ally buffs".

I have no idea why those people think that way, either.. I have just ran into some of them...enough times to think that there must be at least a fair number of them around.

For WAR, it's actually more written into the flavor text / theme than for DRK. It's literally... the thrill of combat invigorating them. The more they can do, the more they can sustain themselves.

That is.. a fair point. I never thought of the adrenaline rush theme as convert-damage-into-HP, and thought of it more like Thrill of Battle and Equilibrium, but that makes a bit of sense...

On that note, though, there's also little to no magic sword of vampirism/blood magic hoodoo in DRK's questlines. It's more about the psychology of it all, somewhat mirroring but still quite distinct from WAR's.

To be fair...I admit, FF Franchise Dark Knight never had Blood Magic in name, just Dark Magic, and/or Dark Magic in name, that is Blood Magic in function, and then we have FFXIV Dark Knight; which does not have any Blood Magic at all, as you type, and only has the Dark Magic... but, I see no reason why FFXIV Dark Knight could not have Blood Magic, at least in function, similar to the other versions, as well.. unless too many FFXIV Dark Knight players would be against FFXIV Dark Knight being more like the other Dark Knight versions.

[ninninin]

I'm just amazed people keep replying to you. Lyth started making freeform poetry using ability names to mock me once and I stopped replying out of second-hand embarrassment. What you're doing is somehow worse, and yet everyone seems determined to convince you you're wrong.

And so? Just because there're people believing I'm wrong that mean I have to be wrong? or do you believe lady blindfold is always right?

Beside, how about you look at yourself?
V

Yeah I don't think ANYONE asked for the Storm's Eye change bud. That's just SE doing weird stuff.

You came out then talk and leave so confidently without even check for the fact > https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/403250

I don't know if I'd describe Conva as being PLD's iconic ability bud.

What WAR have to do to get conva in ARR?

On that note, though, there's also little to no magic sword of vampirism/blood magic hoodoo in DRK's questlines. It's more about the psychology of it all, somewhat mirroring but still quite distinct from WAR's.

Why don't you replay DRK quest chain in stormblood then? and sorry if it still wasn't enough since we have a guy who you don't want me to remind you about trying to turn DRK to Gut from berserk manga.

Doesn't take much pretending, given its iterations as listed before came out in 2008 and 2012, and are a mere extension of Cecil's character itself, whereas XIV's came out in 2015.

I guess having https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ul/Dissidia_NT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-TWuDWkfs0 must have been my imagination then?

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

Warrior see as much use of lifesteal you say? when?
FF1? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...(Final_Fantasy) None
FF3? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...al_Fantasy_III) None
FFXI? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...#Job_abilities None
FFX-2? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...al_Fantasy_X-2) None
FF Tactics Advance? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...actics_Advance) None
FF Tactics A2? https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...or_(Tactics_A2) None
Dissidia Warrior is even more like Holy Knight as warrior of light. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...ight_(Dissidia) Still None

And guess what Dark Knight have life drain as it signature since ff tactic which came out in 1997 and that make it more than 2 decade long. Not long-historied at all isn't it.
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...night_(Tactics)
https://youtu.be/7K_uiYNxa1o?t=559
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...night_(Tactics)
https://youtu.be/7NQ-A4wOvVU?t=19 999 damage is the max damage in FF tactic. Can you show me how it get outdone by any Black Magic caster who gain access to drain spell?

[Vyrerus]

And it isn't just XI. Tactics which have iconic DRK came out 5 years before XI and that make it over 2 decades

Unfortunately, Gaffgarion doesn't meet the criteria to be iconic. Memorable, sure. Iconic, no.

The point about bringing up FFXI DRK is that there are still people actively playing it as a job that received job updates within the last few years. Sure, people replay FFT, but except in remake versions the Dark Knight class there isn't even playable, though you do get its skills via Thunder God Cid.

DRK's only real identity is that it is a knight that wears dark armor and is usually associated with death and offense. Drains get tacked onto it sometime, because they are perceived as being in a similar vein. Related to darkness.

When DRK in XIV came out, it was associated with offense, being the only tank able to full time its tank stance and its DPS stance simultaneously 100% of the time. This was a great identity to have, in my opinion, as it brought the derpy casual tanks up in effectiveness if they took to maining DRK.

Under the right circumstances with good RNG it could even out damage WAR, and with Sole Survivor it had an ability that fed off of the death of its enemies. It also had great AOE drain capability with Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain. Really an optimal tank for dungeons, as its AOEs being all MP based let it sprint without having to manage TP, so it could sprint between every pull.

What Warrior does is not drain. Its skills heal it for the damage inflicted(in the past under bloodbath, in the now under NF). While it looks like a drain, it's more akin to showering in the enemy's blood and getting high off of it. The original Inner Beast healed 3x the amount of damage dealt. Its other skills like Thrill and Equilibrium are just self generated heals. Its job story is that you're a beast, and it's represented by having nearly bottomless wellspring of vitality.

DRK's story is that you're a knight willing to tap into the darkness within to use it as a source of strength to deliver justice for those in need. It's shown to be able to animate corpses, and to split someone's soul. Has a lot of tie ins with death. It's delivering everything and more that every previous incarnation of DRK has delivered. There's just a lot less focus on attachment to evil. I think you're obsessing over the wrong thing, and this is a WAR thread anyway, so you should probably make another DRK thread if you want to ramble on about your ideal DRK imaginings.

[Lyth]

Ahh, salty water fishing.

...

...

There's definitely a subset of the playerbase that really enjoys interesting ability interactions, myself included. I think that BLU (and possibly other limited jobs in the future) are a good choice for that sort of MtG style 'deck building' which favors elaborate interplay between skills. I don't think it's a good choice for standard job design, however.

A lot of people think that they want ability complexity. They don't.

MMOs seem to be very inefficient when it comes to ability design. You can create interesting PvP gameplay in a MOBA with just 4 or 5 abilities. You don't need 25-30. It's the content design that matters, and that's where the gameplay complexity needs to come out. You need to be able to intuitively pick up and play, and it needs to feel good to do so.

You certainly can build a 'lifesteal' tank as a central concept. What's the most memorable thing about Bozja on tank? Bloodsucker. Green numbers. That little vampiric noise that occurs every time you siphon HP. You absolutely could focus in on that experience. You still need a way to survive the attacks upfront, but that's why I suggested tacking on temporary HP as well.

Similarly, why do you think that people obsess about TBN? You could mitigate the same amount of damage with %DR, but you wouldn't get the same reaction from it. It's that feeling of activating the bubble, seeing 0 pop up, and following up with a counter attack. It's just like that green numbers effect. It works because it's viscerally satisfying, not because it's clever. Focus in on that.

Why is the most talked about GNB issue the sound effects? People just want to recapture that feeling of pressing the R1 trigger during Renzokuken. The best GNB action ever designed in this game was Heavensward DRK's Reprisal. The explosion delay was glorious.

If you sit down with a word document and try to type up a job design, you'll probably come up with something that sounds intellectually engaging but is incredibly dry to play. You can't math this stuff out. What matters is if the actions actually feel good to use. Every tank job has a few features that just resonate well with a lot of people. Rather than diluting these experiences across every tank, they should become the centerpiece for job design in their respective jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

There's definitely a subset of the playerbase that really enjoys interesting ability interactions, myself included. I think that BLU (and possibly other limited jobs in the future) are a good choice for that sort of MtG style 'deck building' which favors elaborate interplay between skills. I don't think it's a good choice for standard job design, however.

While I'd love to see that on BLU, agreed. The most customization I could see for most jobs would, idk, the difference between a Freya-esque DRG and a Kain-esque DRG, whereby the prior is (and more importantly, feels) more agile and lightly armored (greater frequency of leaps at less damage each, but likely almost identical potency within any given (raid) buff window).

You certainly can build a 'lifesteal' tank as a central concept. What's the most memorable thing about Bozja on tank? Bloodsucker. Green numbers.

This may come down to semantics, as to how much design is required before we can call something a "central concept", but it may also just be a difference in preference.

For me, I've had more than enough time with lifesteal's green numbers and shrill chimes, to the point I'd happily mute its sound effect if I'd an equally handy way of tracking when a lifesteal buff ends. I realize I'm probably in a minority there. But also, if it were just an instance of, as wanted by so many GNBs, of hearing that satisfying "click" (figurative and literal)... why wouldn't that be a better fit, for, say, a HoT-based healer or passively healing tank whose buffs can go off more often than just the server tick (such that you go from the 3-second tick, to a sort of heart-beat, to a three-step, to an accelerated heart-beat, and so forth).

If the sound experience is the primary thing drawing people in, other possibilities can outscale that, and therefore be a better fit for it. Yes, a lifesteal chime scales with enemies struck and attack speed and thus can make "I hit fast" or "I hit many" doubly satisfying (which I think, given your DRK concepts before, might be why the idea just so obviously "fits" for you), but it's just so... irrelevant to the mechanic itself that I'd just like to ensure it's not just being tossed out there arbitrarily. Heck, even if it's given to a DRK that gradually charges its sword with blood energy or whatnot to strike faster or cleave through more targets to really milk those chimes, what does that do that just a nice hissing thrum from your blade, a la HW Scourge, and on on-hit soulcutting/stealing SFX during a given buff like Blood Weapon (even one with no lifesteal), wouldn't? Unless DRK lives or dies by its ability to be healed for damage dealt, those attack-rate dynamics and the like are going to be the centerpiece, not the lifesteal. Unless really acted upon, that lifesteal just going to be a different form of eHP padding, similar to PLD's Block.

Why is the most talked about GNB issue the sound effects? People just want to recapture that feeling of pressing the R1 trigger during Renzokuken.

Right, but that doesn't mean that feeling wouldn't be equally (if not better) recaptured from, say, spending an Aetheric Charge bar in a channeled form of Continuation to time oGCDs to prearranged attacks (or, attacks arranged by GCD presses once every GCD or two, which would feel relatively infrequent by comparison), a la the actual Renzokuken experience. We already know we can client-side this, and while that does open it up to occasional hacker who could auto-optimize any such mechanic (not that they can't already), that could be really fun so long as it's not overly affected by ping.

You've got the satisfying sound, yes, but if it's still just amounting to hitting 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3, it's not going to satisfy for long. Something more needs to follow from or in the style of those original attractors.

If you sit down with a word document and try to type up a job design, you'll probably come up with something that sounds intellectually engaging but is incredibly dry to play. You can't math this stuff out. What matters is if the actions actually feel good to use. Every tank job has a few features that just resonate well with a lot of people. Rather than diluting these experiences across every tank, they should become the centerpiece for job design in their respective jobs.

Oh, I'm aware. It's why I try to instead imagine what would really be really cool to do in each of a handful of lucrative sample fights, what I want the moment-to-moment thoughts to be like, and what would likely leave someone grinning even in its simplicity. I just disagree that a sound or a particular scaling pattern or a generic mechanic is sufficient centerpiece. Rather than trying to see what can resonate from an arbitrary combination of job and mechanic, I'd rather very sharply envision a particular good feeling and try to work backwards from that. What are some of the feelings that should be prevalent in playing DRK and likely to make someone want to main it? WAR? PLD? GNB?