How fitting

[Lyth]

As someone who was a WAR main in ARR, I can tell you for a fact that even back then, WAR was not exclusively OT. Not in good groups, at least. The main advantage of a PLD MT was if you were planning on skipping forced swaps using Hallowed cheese so that you could run a solo tank comp. But for the most part, a lot of the PLD MT mindset came out of ignorance of what was optimal (I mean, when we started out, people were debating about Parry being good for tanking, come on). A lot of that was already starting to change by Final Coil (WAR MT was preferred in 7p T13 clears), if it wasn't stamped out in Gordias.

And in Heavensward, it's worth remembering that WAR gained stacks from RI and Vengeance, so they were part of WAR's triple cleave opener/burst. It made sense for WAR to be tanking during those portions rather than let those cooldowns be burned for offense alone. Even in a fight like A12S which is very much designed for DRK's toolkit, I would still much sooner take advantage of WAR's cooldowns with intelligent swaps than burn DPS on DADM. And if there was no NIN in the group, forget it. You can unchained pull into the first TB swap, I won't be caught dead using PS. Crater is right. What you wrote is revisionist history.

Either way, I'm struggling to see what the main point of this thread is.

If it's about damage, it's worth noting that tank damage output has a lot less impact across the board. And if you look closely, there is relatively little variation in damage output between jobs in the same role. That's deliberate. WAR was a dps powerhouse in previous expansions not only because were they the highest damage tank, but because you could also do competitive damage in relation to real DPS players. That second point is the critical part.

Now, even if you're the 'big damage tank', it's not going to be by anything much. And the 'big damage healer' is probably going to be on par with you. You're just fighting over last place, if that's the hill that you want to die on.

If it's about self-healing, I'm not sure what the issue is. WAR has amazing lifesteal. So much so, that Holmgang should be the 'fight for your life' invuln, rather than Living Dead. I'm not sure why Clemency is entering the discussion at all. Players dislike situational actions because you can't swap them out for situationally appropriate alternatives. It's nice that Clemency can be clutch, but I wouldn't begrudge PLD players wanting to make it more consistently useful, possibly through procs or changes to resource costs (perhaps stick it on the Oath Gauge and make block procs act as a swiftcast?)

If you wanted to make WAR's defensives more interesting, the best way to do this is to just focus in on the lifesteal theme. Just change it so that overhealing gives you temporary HP up to some maximum total, and double down on the theme by replacing any vanilla %DR or bubble shield cooldowns with temporary HP boosting effects. The main thing that historically made WAR interesting was lining up your offensives with your defensive moveset. Might as well line up your burst for big lifesteal and big HP.

If it's about losing actions to gain new ones, everyone has this problem. There's finite hotbar space. Short of an skill tree system like Warcraft's or a dev team that's quick to make action changes, you'll always have some degree of frustration over the reworks. Especially since they generally only revise things for expansion launches and you're stuck talking to a wall for the next two years until the next release.

The main reason why you notice a decline in power on WAR is because the most of the things that made WAR mandatory were addressed. Remember 100% uptime buffs like Slashing Down? Gone. Remember how certain people used to insist that PLD and DRK had to have clunky GCD stances that cost dps to swap because poor old WAR lost HP on stance swaps? Stances are gone as well. Bring the player.

I am watching the reactions to this new benchmark WAR action with interest, though. Shake it off was the first action to be reworked mid expansion on player demand. I'll be even more amused if you manage to get an action reworked before it's even released. That's some dedicated catering right there. New action: I WIN punch. Kills the boss instantly and even sheaths your weapon for you.

The reason why WAR is so unsatisfying is because players keep demanding more power for less effort. Gauge management is frustrating. Crit/DH RNG is frustrating. And you wonder why you don't get any satisfaction. Satisfaction comes from effort.

[ninninin]

Could have won the medal, if it weren't for that another attempt to give DRK's Life Drain identity away.


"HW"

Someone else : "This isn't drk!"

You : "It's a fun, well-balanced job. "

"SHB"

You : "This isn't drk!!!!"

Someone else : ""It's a fun, well-balanced job. "

Karma : HI

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Either way, I'm struggling to see what the main point of this thread is.

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is. I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

[...]Just change it so that overhealing gives you temporary HP up to some maximum total,[...]

and I kind of like this idea. I agree that Warrior may as well go more into the temporary maximum HP increase theme... but, I disagree with the "LifeSteal" effect for Warrior. I think that the convert damage into HP self-heal theme should be most prevalent with Dark Knight, while Warrior aught to pair the maximum HP increase effect with a focus on instant self-heal abilities, such as Equilibrium.

[Vatom]

Yes, yes, just give support OP despite what he show. Pretty sure anyone can see how right you are by now. Kiddo. You talking about respect make me want to puke.

Well seems I've wasted my time, no questions answer, no big reveal. Puke cute and I'm the kiddo. Allow me to end this lovely banter we go going on you know.. for the kids

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is. I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

I Apologize seems this went on further then needed, obviously just running in circles here

[ninninin]

no questions answer, no big reveal.

That's what you get when you make me feel like I "wasting my time"

[Shurrikhan]

Same... I fail to see or comprehend what the point of all of this hostile back and forth is.

To (over)simplify: a Warrior main is angry about his job being gutted to a shallow husk.

I made a guess and my post was ignored, to continue the back and forth hostility, so I must have either missed the mark and my guess was wrong, or.. plot twist.. the point is the back and forth hostility.

Haven't been watching this thread much, but I'm sorry to hear that. It may have been lost among the sea of other, (much angrier) Au Ra faces. For others who had trouble finding it, see the snip below:

For the most part, my thoughts were on how to differentiate the means of self-heal and self-support effects, between Warrior and Dark Knight.

any way, that said... how about Warrior has instant heals and increase maximum HP as its focus, such as Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, and Dark Knight has magical barriers and convert damage dealt into HP as its focus...while, only Paladin has a literal heal spell, along with a pure damage reduction focus, whether the Paladin block attacks, or could even either have more damage reduction abilities than the other tanks, or be able to use damage reduction abilities more often than other tanks.

this makes three of the Tanks have different means of self-heal, instant-heal ability, heal spell, and damage-into-HP conversion, and have different self-support, maximum HP increase(along with instant-heal), magic barriers, and direct damage reduction.

while, the actual way in which this could function as "unique identity", would be either to make all Tanks have 0 abilities, spells, and/or WeaponSkills that do not match their given theme(I think this is a bad idea, but.. eh.), and is along the lines of a different theme, or make it some thing like each Tank has five or some number of actions that match their theme, and only one or two actions that do not match their theme.

That said, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning/intent with your last comment. I don't think anyone is asking that a given capacity, especially a vague or generic one, be entirely exclusive to their job.

To start from the least demanding common denominator, most seem to want the tank jobs to feel distinct when actually playing them, without necessarily requiring that they look distinct on paper.

(Personally, that's the camp I fall under, as I feel that capacity differences, for instance, are ultimately less impactful than differences in decision-making or playflow, even if they may look more distinct "on paper".)

Others would caution that some portion of capacity, or the way they reach that capacity, may need to be mutually exclusive if we want those jobs' feeling of play to differ as above. But that's already pushing towards a specific camp, rather than a common consensus. Others would be happy enough with more eclectic ways by which a job may distinguish itself.

For the time being, we have a few different traditions among the long-standing XIV jobs: one from XIV, one from XI, and another as some sort of awkward averaging of previous franchise iterations (in which case, say, Warrior is highly tied to "Knight"... and therefore rather muddied into/with Paladin, Dark Knight is hardly distinguishable from "Mystic Knight", "Warmage", etc., etc.).

Personally, I'm of the camp that XIV is XIV, and shouldn't short itself just to retain alignment with previous iterations, which are themselves rather jumbled or painfully barebone. But that is, again, one of multiple camps, just as are those who would seem to find XI iterations sacrosanct, and likely any movie an inherent failure if/when --in taking advantage of the new medium and opportunities presented to it-- it differs from its source work.

I disagree with the "LifeSteal" effect for Warrior. I think that the convert damage into HP self-heal theme should be most prevalent with Dark Knight, while Warrior aught to pair the maximum HP increase effect with a focus on instant self-heal abilities, such as Equilibrium.

Personally, I... don't see why, to be honest. Warrior has, in XIV, always been a more centered around its percentile life-steal (or, "healing for a portion of damage dealt", if one doesn't wish to bias the term towards vampirism) than DRK has been, in keeping with WAR's "the best defense is a good offense" sort of theme.

In either case, though, "lifesteal" is an incredibly generic effect, just as would be "damage-absorbing effects" or "healing abilities". I think what matters most is the sense and style of agency among/between the two.

For instance, as a WAR, I expect to be kind of pulled into the flow of combat, and then I simply live or die by that, whereas when playing as a DRK I expect to have a bit more choice or deliberateness in my actions. To use lifesteal mechanics or their tie-ins as example, as a Warrior I'd expect lifesteal to be appended to a wider variety of attacks, and therefore less selective, but also to be integral to other granular areas, like maximum HP, or an oGCD that deals damage based on my current HP (and therefore benefits from those maximum HP increases), etc., etc. As a DRK, I'd expect it to charge something I could tap into very deliberately, for less throughput per minute but perhaps a bit more when it really counted.

[Shurrikhan]

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

:: Side-note: the most repeated user of a "Blood Weapon" skill (even when limiting such to its HP-absorbing functionality) is... Firion, who is typically presented as an agile bow-, sword-, and spear-user in light armor.

[Lyth]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it. You don't need any %DR cooldowns. You don't need any barrier shields. All these effects can be achieved through temporary HP.

Likewise, you could just as easily create a job around barriers and punishing enemies for attacking them. Zarya is a great concept. Enemies hit your barriers, you hit back harder and faster.

What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

Everyone has a token barrier shield, even if it makes no sense for them to be able to generate one. Everyone uses the same stock of %DR cooldowns. There can be different ways of achieving the same effect. You just need to commit to deliberately going in different directions with each job, and respect each job's design space. No, you can't have Cover. No, you can't have TBN. No, you can't have NF.

The problem is that the development team doesn't really know what each job's identity is, so they don't know how to put their feet down.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

Fully agreed. Granted, I do think there's space for them both to have lifesteal, in very different ways, but if we hadn't already had so much of WAR most filling that position, I wouldn't much care.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it.

This is where I disagree, though. Lifesteal just isn't, itself, a sufficient theme by which to center a job.

Take your earlier spitball concept for Warrior whereby overhealing would increase maximum HP. Now, atop that, Warrior has previously had skills with potency that varies based on current HP, thus benefiting from maximum HP increases. Between those three factors we're finally getting somewhere that capitalizes on a theme. Lifesteal was the first valve we had to turn in getting there, but it's not as if we couldn't go other directions, nor that the job identity could, at a playflow or decision-making level, be summed up by just "lifesteal". It doesn't necessitate exclusive ownership over "lifesteal", but it's also the foundation for something potentially brilliant.

Consider a similar spitball concept for DRK that makes use of another traditional theme by which output increases as your %HP lowers (variously called Blood for Blood or Eye for an Eye). Sure enough, a natural fit for that would be HP-sacrificing skills, the most long-standing theme/mechanic among DRK iterations. But, if we didn't want DRK to then become painfully healer-dependent, above and beyond other tanks, just to engage with it kit, we'd probably want some sparse but powerful usage of life-steal (a la DA-AD or DA-SE, but probably with a higher baseline and not so often overwhelmed by competing with "pure offense" choices). That would again be dependent on some amount of lifesteal, but it'd be an altogether different theme.

Sometimes the minutia can be more effective than the basic type for establishing theme. Imagine if Shelltron (or whatever similarly often-used and bankable ability that might replace it) would auto-block until having absorbed X damage. That constraint would encourage CD-stacking atop Shelltron. Then, look at skills like Spirit Within, which similarly reward keeping yourself at high HP. Between them, you've got the beginnings of a theme whereby PLD wants to be steadfast at all times, as not to let the floodgates open and inevitably topple. That'd be why it has the only invuln that immunes all damage. That'd be partly why it has "emergency", throughput-sacrificing utility skills like Clemency; though it has faintly above-average strength when keeping itself ever strong during its thematic ability cycles, it's weaker in turn otherwise, and thus an "emergency" for them can start sooner than for most tanks. And all that, in turn, makes it a tank that particularly excels at (i.e., wants to be) swapping between being a strong shield, in itself, and cooperative vanguard -- very deliberate compared to the typical tank. To me, that's far more thematic than just "its eHP increase comes from RNG mitigation (Block)" or "it's the tank that has barriers", even if those give a more immediately recognizable point of departure.

[Vyrerus]

DRK in FFXI

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.