How fitting

[Shurrikhan]

Could but how much of a difference would it really make in the long run, as soon as you get used to it, it's gonna be people back here again complaining it just as dull and boring

So... what? All improvement, polish, creativity, etc., in regard to building a skill, kit, or playflow is pointless?

And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?

Also nice that you ignored the part where I noted with Requiescat, that you have more freedoms with Requiescat, that separates it from Delirium or IR.

Ignored? Not really. It was you who drew those similarities to unify the three, after all. If you want to reverse or disclaim your statement immediately after, that's up to you. My point was separate: that two other jobs being similarly dull in their nearest area doesn't suddenly make that area impossible to improve upon. We'd already seen better versions, after all.

but fundamentally it's the same thing

X (4.1 vs. post-4.1 IR) is unchanged, except in regard to A, B, C, and D (duration, effort and time required for setup, margin management, and intervening actions), but A, B, C, and D don't count, so they're the same. ???

No. They were different. Not hugely so, but different nonetheless -- hence the complaints about losing some of those above elements. Spare me the "fundamental" goalpost-tossing.

Some changes towards simplification have been net positives (even if that may seem the case less often of late), but they are nonetheless changes.

[ninninin]

The Blackest Night

• 15-second CD.
• Lasts up to 7 seconds.
• Increases eHP by 25%.
• Usable on others.
• Requires a margin of resource be reserved for it.
• Refunds its resource cost if and only if it is fully consumed within 7 seconds.

Thrill of Battle

• 90-second CD
• Lasts 20 seconds.
• Increases eHP by 20%.

They have not a thing in common except that they both increase eHP and have durations.

They have everything in common except that you can tbn party member and you can use tbn more in stormblood.

Thrill is 10s. and Thrill in shadowbringers isn't just 20% it have additional effect that increase healing receive by 20% and that make it as strong as tbn. Couple with the fact that DRK don't have self heal on demand like Equilibrium it allow WAR to came out of tank buster with more hp unless it is magical attack.

When it first came out in stormblood TBN is 20% same with Thrill. It just that it can be used more frequently due the fact that you can convert the mp and store it as blood gauge. In term of defensive it is the same with have Thrill on yourself. Citing how "it need to break" make it so much different is like saying you're supposed to waste Thrill on weak attack that won't break it.

Since TBN has been brought up let me tell you why shadowbringers TBN suck= It can only hold 1 Dark Art. So what happen when you need to use 2 tbn before raidbuff came? you gotta let loose 1 EOS outside of raid buff window. Sure, while in theory tbn can be used like 4 times per minute but the more you used it outside of raid buff window the more you lose dps. Great huh?

And since you're here again let me fill you with the fact about "scythe". In XI, scythe isn't exclusive to DRK. DRK can also equip Greatsword in XI. DRK wasn't even the first melee that could equip scythe in FF history. Life Drain ability on the other hand has been with DRK far longer.

Further more, Reaper as showed in the trailer have nothing in common with the real dark knight. DRK iconic ability isn't having a ghost as sidekick and it certainly not edgy berserker that keep spam the same red slash move.

Yes. It is. XI is over there, still running. If you want something from XI, then show what parts of its choices would necessarily be better than what we have here, instead of supplanting anything and everything in bulk simply because you don't like the last 10 years of identity this game has given to a particular XIV job.

By all means, shit on Yoshi-P's handling of jobs. I'm not about to defend that. But don't pretend that his shortfalls suddenly makes XI's job concept perfect, let alone transferrable to a very different game.[/S]
.

When did I claim XI is perfect? XI isn't prefect but at least they manage to make job retain it's identity. XIV on the other hand have a chronic identity problem and imbalance at the same time.

And about the "Just because you prefer". Sorry, I don't believe I was supposed to feel impressed when they serve me a Cola when I paid for a Coffee in a Coffee Shop.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

so... I read through all three pages, and I guess(?) that the topic of this thread is another Tank identity complaints and suggestions thread, and as such...
I think that I will offer a idea of my own, and see what the rest of you think about it...
I have little to type about Paladin or GunBreaker, though. For the most part, my thoughts were on how to differentiate the means of self-heal and self-support effects, between Warrior and Dark Knight.

any way, that said... how about Warrior has instant heals and increase maximum HP as its focus, such as Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle, and Dark Knight has magical barriers and convert damage dealt into HP as its focus...while, only Paladin has a literal heal spell, along with a pure damage reduction focus, whether the Paladin block attacks, or could even either have more damage reduction abilities than the other tanks, or be able to use damage reduction abilities more often than other tanks.

this makes three of the Tanks have different means of self-heal, instant-heal ability, heal spell, and damage-into-HP conversion, and have different self-support, maximum HP increase(along with instant-heal), magic barriers, and direct damage reduction.
while, the actual way in which this could function as "unique identity", would be either to make all Tanks have 0 abilities, spells, and/or WeaponSkills that do not match their given theme(I think this is a bad idea, but.. eh.), and is along the lines of a different theme, or make it some thing like each Tank has five or some number of actions that match their theme, and only one or two actions that do not match their theme.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

So... what? All improvement, polish, creativity, etc., in regard to building a skill, kit, or playflow is pointless?

And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?


Ignored? Not really. It was you who drew those similarities to unify the three, after all. If you want to reverse or disclaim your statement immediately after, that's up to you. My point was separate: that two other jobs being similarly dull in their nearest area doesn't suddenly make that area impossible to improve upon. We'd already seen better versions, after all.


X (4.1 vs. post-4.1 IR) is unchanged, except in regard to A, B, C, and D (duration, effort and time required for setup, margin management, and intervening actions), but A, B, C, and D don't count, so they're the same. ???

No. They were different. Not hugely so, but different nonetheless -- hence the complaints about losing some of those above elements. Spare me the "fundamental" goalpost-tossing.

Some changes towards simplification have been net positives (even if that may seem the case less often of late), but they are nonetheless changes.

I never said anything was pointless, that's just your assumption. I just pointed out you're gonna have the same people come in here and complain that it's boring and same-y all over again. Rinse and repeat, give something new, someone always comes complaining, changes are never good enough for people.

Paladin serves to refute your claim of "And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?" when PLD was a strict rotation, yet while strict in some respects, now has the most complex rotation out of all of the tanks in optimisation, refer to the rotation guide for specific fights on Balance Discord for evidence of this, it's rotation becomes very nuanced depending on fights. But guess that still won't be good enough for you, huh?

I mean of course I unified the similarities of Requiescat, Inner Release and Delirium, they're a buff window where you spam the same skill in a normal flow of the rotation. And I never disclaimed or reversed my statement, but you're asking for nuance but overlooking nuance slapping you in the face.

And no because when the buff window is open you spam fell cleave 6 times over, the point people complain about said skills was always that is was spammy sure it took a bit of effort to set up, Paladin need to recoup it's mana otherwise failing to do so may result in failing to gain the Requiescat buff, by having MP under 80% of maximum. So end goal is fundamentally the same, spam x button for y times while buff is active.

[ninninin]

I might be wrong but pld doesn't seem to like the fact that they have to sacrifice dps for heal. Maybe they could have Heal Over Time ability like regen instead since PLD is like Gladiator+WHM. And then GNB could have instant aurora. However at the moment aurora being HOT provide gnb a tool to build more aggro while pulling in dungeon. I'm not sure which way they prefer.

On magical barrier topic. Since barrier is the same because it create extra hp bar it would still be the same when thrill also create extra hp bar.
If you make this barrier only negate magical attack then it could just end up being a gimmick like dark mind.

[A-Omega]

-Bloodbath lvl 8 heals for 25% of damage dealt -> Nascent Flash lvl 76 and originally couldn’t be used on self…but we were just whining right. It’s not a broken version of what we already had? That didn’t need fixed tho. WAR mains are just spoiled.
-1st place damage dropped to 3rd at best but that’s fine right. Since I see so much PLD talk, why wasn’t PLD being able to block magic ok? Same with PLD and not having a gap closer. Same with “Why don’t we do as much damage as WAR” until PLD was made 1st/2nd in Shadowbringers. I can keep going.
-Foresight lvl 2 20% mitigation…gone
-Deliverance lvl 52 5% damage increase w/ a stacking 2% crit increase, up to 5. Our job’s identity…gone
-Fracture lvl 6 100 potency, for 30 seconds…gone. Oh, PLD still have Goring Blade tho.
-Steel Cyclone lvl 46, health damage returned as health…feature gone and with it, low lvl survivability. That’s not bad tho…right.
-Mercy Stroke, Brutal Swing(stun but hey…PLD still has shield bash), Butchers Block…all damage skills and all gone with nothing in their place.
What we DID get in Shadowbringers…
-Chaotic Cyclone lvl 72…nothing new
-Inner Release lvl 80…we already had that too. Only difference, they removed the 8 second mitigation (I think) that came with the original.
-Already mentioned Nascent Flash lvl 76 which replaced our lvl 8 skill, but for four GCDs at best instead of the original 15 seconds. That’s good right? No self sustain until lvl 76 makes perfect sense even tho PLD has Clemency at lvl 58. No validity to that complaint.
Miss me with the off the mark comments. This wasn’t a case of whiny gamers moaning about a 1% damage loss. This was an entire job ripped apart for no apparent reason. I respect the devs for the updates that made WAR a better version of the nightmare Shadowbringers launch was. The only job that had anywhere near the destruction we endured, DRK. Guess what…they aren’t happy right now either.
So spare me the PLD talk. That’s the ONLY job that gains every single expansion. UNLIKE PLD mains, I’m not asking for anyone to be dismantled so I can hold on to my claim as god every expansion. I’m not jumping on their posts trying to discredit their opinion either. I’m asking for an actual return for all we lost. Identity that goes beyond buffed potency. WAR never felt like this until now and it isn’t a good thing.
If all that and asking for a rework that’s feels complete makes me a spoiled brat bragging for the devs to run to my aid (in some of your opinions)…I’m 100% fine with that. My only goal is for WAR to receive the same tlc other jobs have gotten, instead of watered down reworks of skills we had years ago.

[ninninin]

Pld = have to sacrifice dps for heal.
War = Instant heal with Equilibrium without having to sacrifice dps that could also get a boost by thrill. Nascent Flash life drain is even stronger than bloodbath.

Pld = have to build gauge first before they can use sheltron.
War = Raw Intuition or Nascent Flash right away with Thrill of battle on top if needed.

PLD isn't no.1 in tank dps chart, It's GNB. But you seem be upset by the fact that a tank like PLD manage to do a little more dps than you? are you imply that a job like PLD shouldn't be allow to do equal damage with you? if so where is the balance?

WAR's LV80 action is Inner Chaos not Inner Release.

[Vatom]

PLD isn't no.1 in tank dps chart, It's GNB. But you seem be upset by the fact that a tank like PLD manage to do a little more dps than you.

Lol I finally caught up to only to see this one pull back their statement about War having more dps then pld

And I quote "WAR's dps even beat PLD's dps in Diamond EX. PLD Never came close to be a god like WAR in this patch. Ask around."

*Just to note if ever questioned*

But Im not here to throw shade simple to hear out a WAR main that doesn't feel like his class is sufficient and I do agree with him on most parts

[A-Omega]

Since were correcting simple mistakes…PLD has an instant heal. Clemency. 1200 potency that restores 50% of your own health, even when you don’t cast it on yourself. In case you didn’t know…WHM Cure II is 700 potency, same with AST Benefic II. Both HEALERS main primary heal. Somehow neglecting to mention that seems way worse then a last word typo, but ehhh….find whatever straws you can to grasp at.

[ninninin]

Lol I finally caught up to only to see this one pull back their statement about War having more dps then pld

And I quote "WAR's dps even beat PLD's dps in Diamond EX. PLD Never came close to be a god like WAR in this patch. Ask around."

*Just to note if ever questioned*

But Im not here to throw shade simple to hear out a WAR main that doesn't feel like his class is sufficient and I do agree with him on most parts

Wow Congratulation. *Clap* *Clap* It seem you have been reward after stalking me this far.

Seriously tho. I mention WAR beat PLD dps in diamond EX but did I say it always beat PLD elsewhere? The different between their dps outside of diamond ex is minimal but defensive kit of WAR is always far superior than PLD and that make it close to god. It's funny how you act like *This is my chance to attack* and then forget to use your head.

Since were correcting simple mistakes…PLD has an instant heal. Clemency. 1200 potency that restores 50% of your own health, even when you don’t cast it on yourself. In case you didn’t know…WHM Cure II is 700 potency, same with AST Benefic II. Both HEALERS main primary heal. Somehow neglecting to mention that seems way worse then a last word typo, but ehhh….find whatever straws you can to grasp at.

It trigger gcd which caused dps loss. keep the straws for yourself.