How fitting

[Shurrikhan]

Personally I don't mind PLDs Requiescat window, it's only as dull as War's Fell Cleave spam or DRK's Bloodspiller spam

That's pretty dull then, no? Especially if compared against the likes of 4.1 Inner Release burst window or even 4.3 DRK's Delirium interactions? Theirs degraded since, but that hardly means PLD couldn't benefit from something less spammy.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

That's pretty dull then, no? Especially if compared against the likes of 4.1 Inner Release burst window or even 4.3 DRK's Delirium interactions? Theirs degraded since, but that hardly means PLD couldn't benefit from something less spammy.

Could but how much of a difference would it really make in the long run, as soon as you get used to it, it's gonna be people back here again complaining it just as dull and boring, as if you spammed 3-5 buttons over again. That's the nature of this game, you can come up with some galaxy brain levelled ideas, but if most people can't grasp it, then it's bad by default. Make some big overhaul, then give it time, the same people come back time and time again complaining it's boring, and the majority of those people probably haven't got the fundamentals down for the specific jobs they're complaining about.

Also nice that you ignored the part where I noted with Requiescat, that you have more freedoms with Requiescat, that separates it from Delirium or IR.

And 4.1 WAR was still spamming the one button 6 times in your big window, took work to line it up, but fundamentally it's the same thing, spamming the same GCD.

[Shurrikhan]

Could but how much of a difference would it really make in the long run, as soon as you get used to it, it's gonna be people back here again complaining it just as dull and boring

So... what? All improvement, polish, creativity, etc., in regard to building a skill, kit, or playflow is pointless?

And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?

Also nice that you ignored the part where I noted with Requiescat, that you have more freedoms with Requiescat, that separates it from Delirium or IR.

Ignored? Not really. It was you who drew those similarities to unify the three, after all. If you want to reverse or disclaim your statement immediately after, that's up to you. My point was separate: that two other jobs being similarly dull in their nearest area doesn't suddenly make that area impossible to improve upon. We'd already seen better versions, after all.

but fundamentally it's the same thing

X (4.1 vs. post-4.1 IR) is unchanged, except in regard to A, B, C, and D (duration, effort and time required for setup, margin management, and intervening actions), but A, B, C, and D don't count, so they're the same. ???

No. They were different. Not hugely so, but different nonetheless -- hence the complaints about losing some of those above elements. Spare me the "fundamental" goalpost-tossing.

Some changes towards simplification have been net positives (even if that may seem the case less often of late), but they are nonetheless changes.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

So... what? All improvement, polish, creativity, etc., in regard to building a skill, kit, or playflow is pointless?

And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?


Ignored? Not really. It was you who drew those similarities to unify the three, after all. If you want to reverse or disclaim your statement immediately after, that's up to you. My point was separate: that two other jobs being similarly dull in their nearest area doesn't suddenly make that area impossible to improve upon. We'd already seen better versions, after all.


X (4.1 vs. post-4.1 IR) is unchanged, except in regard to A, B, C, and D (duration, effort and time required for setup, margin management, and intervening actions), but A, B, C, and D don't count, so they're the same. ???

No. They were different. Not hugely so, but different nonetheless -- hence the complaints about losing some of those above elements. Spare me the "fundamental" goalpost-tossing.

Some changes towards simplification have been net positives (even if that may seem the case less often of late), but they are nonetheless changes.

I never said anything was pointless, that's just your assumption. I just pointed out you're gonna have the same people come in here and complain that it's boring and same-y all over again. Rinse and repeat, give something new, someone always comes complaining, changes are never good enough for people.

Paladin serves to refute your claim of "And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?" when PLD was a strict rotation, yet while strict in some respects, now has the most complex rotation out of all of the tanks in optimisation, refer to the rotation guide for specific fights on Balance Discord for evidence of this, it's rotation becomes very nuanced depending on fights. But guess that still won't be good enough for you, huh?

I mean of course I unified the similarities of Requiescat, Inner Release and Delirium, they're a buff window where you spam the same skill in a normal flow of the rotation. And I never disclaimed or reversed my statement, but you're asking for nuance but overlooking nuance slapping you in the face.

And no because when the buff window is open you spam fell cleave 6 times over, the point people complain about said skills was always that is was spammy sure it took a bit of effort to set up, Paladin need to recoup it's mana otherwise failing to do so may result in failing to gain the Requiescat buff, by having MP under 80% of maximum. So end goal is fundamentally the same, spam x button for y times while buff is active.

[Shurrikhan]

I never said anything was pointless, that's just your assumption. I just pointed out you're gonna have the same people come in here and complain that it's boring and same-y all over again. Rinse and repeat, give something new, someone always comes complaining, changes are never good enough for people.

Which can only really be construed either of two ways: either complaints are irrelevant, or positive change (by which to reduce complaints or stimulate perceived quality, from which basis complaints generally will or will not follow) are impossible.

The first comes off as "the devs shouldn't listen to their players; they're nonsensical and/or absolutely unappeasable".
The second, as some sort of blasé fatalism.

Why should I care that, yes, complaints will still exist in numbers greater than 0 even after I'd have gotten what I want? I'll have addressed what I dislike, and it'd have come at no cost to anyone else -- unless they have a specific preference, with no change to capacity, for hitting only that one action (Holy Spirit) for the majority of Requiescat.

Paladin serves to refute your claim of "And how would we even know, when not a single job has been changed for the more nuanced/involved/creative, only the opposite?"

The playflow changes between StB and ShB Paladin are (1) Atonement (which will almost never act as anything but an even-numbered RA combo in greater rotation) and (2) the incredibly rare case where the added potency per Requisite phase from Confiteor in a given length of boss jump will slightly overperform keeping it synced per normal macrorotation (e.g., in alignment with Fight or Flight).

Somehow that's fundamentally different, but Requiescat and Inner Release are fundamentally the same, let alone 4.3 Warrior and 5.x Warrior in their macrorotation?

it's rotation becomes very nuanced depending on fights. But guess that still won't be good enough for you, huh?

I never said its fight-specific alignments didn't appeal to me. I've not even called Requiescat itself dull.

I literally said, only, that "While I like the back and forth, I'll admit HS spam is... really dull for those 10 seconds of Req," and, off the cuff, that I wouldn't mind if there was more going on under the Req buff itself than just HS/HC spam and a trailing Confiteor. Hell, most of my comment that you've gone so far out of your way to, what, call painfully naïve(?) was specifically talking about when the skill was introduced in StB, and how I had at the time hoped it'd fit or, later, been expanded upon.

when PLD was a strict rotation, yet while strict in some respects, now has the most complex rotation out of all of the tanks in optimisation

I know. I've never disagreed with that. What part of "HS spam" has anything to do with any other part of PLD's rotation than... the HS spam? My concern is not the number of globals under Req. It is solely on how repetitively those globals play out.

Paladin need to recoup it's mana otherwise failing to do so may result in failing to gain the Requiescat buff, by having MP under 80% of maximum

Again, I know. It's in the damned tooltip.

And no because when the buff window is open you spam fell cleave 6 times over

Inner Release lasted 7 GCDs at the time, if taking even 3.8% Skill Speed, which any Warrior would. Yes, it could only do 6 Fell Cleaves, but that meant it actually had a preferred alignment in one's rotation to include a Storm's Path, as to additionally afford (as they were not at the time free) an Onslaught and Upheaval.

Admittedly, that constraint functioned very differently from Req's 80+% MP requirement, in that it provided additional space for optimization rather than fewer rotational choices for viable use, but I'm curious why you'd ignore that and harp on Req's little extra feature. Granted, I still don't know why you're telling me about it, as I've not called them the same; only you have. I only said I dislike consecutive spam, especially when there are, and have been, other options.

So end goal is fundamentally the same, spam x button for y times while buff is active.

And, what, the intermediate goals just don't matter?

Which is it? Is PLD not fundamentally the same, because it adds further points of engagement which can be capitalized upon for unique capacities? Or is it fundamentally the same, and thus not "really" any more complex?

__________________________

Again, it's very simple:

I'd prefer PLD to be less spammy (e.g., during Req).

Technically, I'd also like Req's MP requirement to be removed or made more lenient, since it only reduces its available points of viable use rather than adding any depth to its actual execution, but that's a separate issue.

I'd prefer WAR to be less spammy (e.g., during IR).
I'd prefer DRK to be less spammy (e.g., during Delirium).

That's it. It's a personal preference.

By all means, feel free to again conflate whatever number of iterations of each of those jobs as "fundamentally" the same. Feel free to call that preference naïve, in that complaints would still exist even if each were made less spammy. But that's all there is to it.

I want X, and you're... somehow opposed to X because it's not a comprehensive solution to something I'd never intended it to be? ...Whatever. You do you.