How fitting

[Shurrikhan]

WAR wasn't capable to siphon life energy from anything. That art belong to DRK.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

:: Side-note: the most repeated user of a "Blood Weapon" skill (even when limiting such to its HP-absorbing functionality) is... Firion, who is typically presented as an agile bow-, sword-, and spear-user in light armor.

[Lyth]

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.

I think if the dev team were creating FFXIV as a new MMORPG now, with our current job selection, DRK would probably be the most sensible choice for a lifesteal/HP manipulation tank. But it makes much less sense now to revise both DRK and WAR to get there, than it does to simply push WAR further along in that same direction. It's not that big a deal.

I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic. If you're going to have a dedicated lifesteal tank, build the entire job around it. You don't need any %DR cooldowns. You don't need any barrier shields. All these effects can be achieved through temporary HP.

Likewise, you could just as easily create a job around barriers and punishing enemies for attacking them. Zarya is a great concept. Enemies hit your barriers, you hit back harder and faster.

What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

Everyone has a token barrier shield, even if it makes no sense for them to be able to generate one. Everyone uses the same stock of %DR cooldowns. There can be different ways of achieving the same effect. You just need to commit to deliberately going in different directions with each job, and respect each job's design space. No, you can't have Cover. No, you can't have TBN. No, you can't have NF.

The problem is that the development team doesn't really know what each job's identity is, so they don't know how to put their feet down.

[Vyrerus]

DRK in FFXI

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

[ninninin]

DRK in...

Let pretend that Dissidia doesn't have XIV influence. Let pretend that all of this title was made by the same team. Blood Weapon doesn't mean LIFE DRAIN. I bring that up to show that what was belong to DRK has been taken to give to other tank.

I said

Life Drain ability on the other hand has been with DRK far longer.

I didn't say the first drk born with it. I like how you try to raise the fact that since life drain has been absent from DRK in some FF mean that life drain is not DRK's trait.

I just hate when someone insists that another game must play like their game, or decries all preferences otherwise despite showing little effort to parse out why their game's/prefererd version would actually be superior to the other apart from a vague and sometimes contradictory fixation on theme.

And in the end it boil down to "I just hate"

We have history, We have lore as reference. You on the other hand only have "I prefer" by your logic Black Mage could start summon Bahamut in the next game and there would be nothing wrong with it. You can say it in many way but at the end it like "I don't mind starbucks serve cola instead of coffee if it is tastier"

If you remodel the interior of the a ship and replace all the wood with the new one, is the same ship still the same ship? Yes, but only when you look at it from the outside.

If all of their members has been replaced and they start making rap instead of rock, Is ACDC still ACDC band? Yes, but only in name.

This isn’t an argument so save the energy. It isn’t about WAR, FF14, my point, or your point.

The thing is. FF14 has its own lore, much like most FF games in the franchise. Iconic things remain, but things are constantly changing to make the old feel new. It’s literally what they’ve been doing with almost every game. Even the names of spells change. Blizzard/blizzara/blizzaga from Blizzard/2/3 and back again.

It’s not about right or wrong here…it just is. Did you play FF7 remake? Almost unrecognizable from the original even though it’s titled REMAKE. I loved the original FF7 and was looking forward to a remake, with current graphics… I was sorely disappointed, but committed to it nonetheless. The game isn’t horrible for what it is, just completely different lore then expected. It’s just what SE does whether we like it or not.

It's not about right or wrong here...it just you love this, lore and everyone else who didn't think so be damned.

Let me paint the whole picture for you on that one, though you probably already know/knew at some point.

DRK had abilities similar to Warrior that raised attack and lowered defense, with its class identifier skill Souleater coming in at level 30 granting +25acc and taking 10% of your total HP and converting it directly to damage dealt on both auto attacks and physical weapon skills. It basically had Blood Weapon to offset that.

Within the confines of its black magic capabilities, it excelled in Dark Magic skill, with minors in Elemental and Enfeebling skill. Dark Magic skill affected the Drain and Aspir series of spells, spells that drain HP or MP. It got earliest access to Aspir II and as far as I remember, exclusive access to Drain II and Drain III. Drain II/III allowed it to drain and add the absorbed amount to total HP, granting it temporary hit points. This looped back into making Souleater more effective.

It also had Dread Spikes, which are spikes that deal counter damage that have endrain on them, granting the DRK HP back for being attacked. Incredibly effective, but had a drained HP total effect that would cancel the buff rather shortly against anything dangerous. Damage resolution also happens first, so if the DRK takes lethal damage they don't drain it back after they are already dead, receiving the KO status.

This variation of DRK has been in FFXI online since 2002, so it's got a 19 year history, to be fair. There's people that've been playing this type of DRK for almost two decades, and for the die hards, FFXIV's is a pale imitation at best (though certainly relatively more sturdy).

But yeah, I agree, DRK overall is about lifesteal for big damage. That's why people frowned when it was introduced as a tank. The Drains and things from FFXI version were all there to augment its life steals.

Big Sadge there too, cause none of its lifesteals worked on undead monsters, and a lot of times were subject to Souleater resistance to prevent DRK based zergs cause it used to bypass all defenses.

And it isn't just XI. Tactics which have iconic DRK came out 5 years before XI and that make it over 2 decades.

*snip*

We used to ask for it but it was extremely exhausting when you have new DRK goes against it. Self Sacrifice for benefit could work. It just that the new DRK in hw treat it same way with people treat the idea of going to space as something that never work.

Look at superbolide.

Or you could make darkside reduce max hp cap by xxx and reduce damage taken by xxx as well as increase damage dealt by xxx or gain other benefit to compensated. But come to think about it wasn't there a tank that have high hp that could choose to sacrifice the increase hp effect and damage reduction effect they could have for damage in the past? in a sense, Deliverance was already provided a way to self sacrifice your hp for damage.

Real DRK could work and could have been fun as well as require player skill. It just that the real DRK trait has been given to WAR and new DRK in hw think it is a fine trade. Little did they know about the fact that dev was looking to turn D-A-R-K-K-N-I-G-H-T to edgy BERSERKER since back then.

Let me be clear here : I wasn't against WAR have good ability but it mustn't come at he cost of Real DRK have to lose it so WAR could have it.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

That said, I'm having trouble understanding your meaning/intent with your last comment. I don't think anyone is asking that a given capacity, especially a vague or generic one, be entirely exclusive to their job.

To start from the least demanding common denominator, most seem to want the tank jobs to feel distinct when actually playing them, without necessarily requiring that they look distinct on paper.

(Personally, that's the camp I fall under, as I feel that capacity differences, for instance, are ultimately less impactful than differences in decision-making or playflow, even if they may look more distinct "on paper".)

Others would caution that some portion of capacity, or the way they reach that capacity, may need to be mutually exclusive if we want those jobs' feeling of play to differ as above. But that's already pushing towards a specific camp, rather than a common consensus. Others would be happy enough with more eclectic ways by which a job may distinguish itself.

I agree with that as well, and agree with you, which is why I said that I think it is a bad idea. The point of my last comment is because I have seen and ran into people that think different, and want or demand that a Subclass both look and feel unique, as well as to be unique in game-play function; so I put that part into my post, as I tend to attempt to put compromises alongside my own ideas, to work with people that do not agree with me.

For the time being, we have a few different traditions among the long-standing XIV jobs: one from XIV, one from XI, and another as some sort of awkward averaging of previous franchise iterations (in which case, say, Warrior is highly tied to "Knight"... and therefore rather muddied into/with Paladin, Dark Knight is hardly distinguishable from "Mystic Knight", "Warmage", etc., etc.).

Personally, I'm of the camp that XIV is XIV, and shouldn't short itself just to retain alignment with previous iterations, which are themselves rather jumbled or painfully barebone. But that is, again, one of multiple camps, just as are those who would seem to find XI iterations sacrosanct, and likely any movie an inherent failure if/when --in taking advantage of the new medium and opportunities presented to it-- it differs from its source work.

I have never played nor even seen FFXI, so I have no idea, to be honest... And I sit half-way into both "camps", I suppose. I can agree that new ideas are good and that FFXIV aught to have its own themes going for it, and not just to take ideas from else-where and copy and paste, but I also feel like references to other things, which FFXIV is full of, should be based on what the reference copies, or else the point of being a reference to another thing seems to have lost its point, in my perspective.

Personally, I... don't see why, to be honest. Warrior has, in XIV, always been a more centered around its percentile life-steal (or, "healing for a portion of damage dealt", if one doesn't wish to bias the term towards vampirism) than DRK has been, in keeping with WAR's "the best defense is a good offense" sort of theme.

In either case, though, "lifesteal" is an incredibly generic effect, just as would be "damage-absorbing effects" or "healing abilities". I think what matters most is the sense and style of agency among/between the two.

For instance, as a WAR, I expect to be kind of pulled into the flow of combat, and then I simply live or die by that, whereas when playing as a DRK I expect to have a bit more choice or deliberateness in my actions. To use lifesteal mechanics or their tie-ins as example, as a Warrior I'd expect lifesteal to be appended to a wider variety of attacks, and therefore less selective, but also to be integral to other granular areas, like maximum HP, or an oGCD that deals damage based on my current HP (and therefore benefits from those maximum HP increases), etc., etc. As a DRK, I'd expect it to charge something I could tap into very deliberately, for less throughput per minute but perhaps a bit more when it really counted.

I say that, because Ninninin aside, I have seen other Dark Knights that are mad about Warrior has convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, more than what Dark Knight does, and I have no idea how many Dark Knights feel that way... while.. say that both Subclasses, Dark Knight and Warrior, have the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect... Then come the complaints about the two being too similar, in another way than they already are, so either the complaints are ignored, which at this point is what I think may be better, or the complaints are addressed and one Subclass loses the effect in question.

I have to be the villain for one of the sides, when it comes to the decision of which Tank takes the loss, in which I chose to be the Villain for Warrior, as a personal opinion.

that aside, my opinion is that Dark knight and Warrior should both have convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effects, and although I have no idea how to explain that for Warrior, where-as with Dark Knight I can just call it Blood Magic, I see no reason to remove that particular self-heal effect from either Subclass. For a example, say that Warrior has two of them, Nascent Flash/Glint and a new one, while Dark Knight has four or five; to reference back to the comment in my old post.
For the sake of argument, if whom were to say that the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect "belongs to" Warrior more than Dark Knight, then it could just be the other way around, Warrior has four or five actions in that theme, and Dark Knight has two or three.

DRK in...

• FF2: Starts with a broadsword and buckler. Top proficiencies are with (one-handed) swords and axes. Some lore implications of mind-influencing capabilities. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF3: Can sacrifice HP to deal AoE damage. Can use White Magic. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF4: Can sacrifice HP to AoE or, in later versions, to double its attack (at HP cost per attack). No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF10-2: Excels in raw physical damage (albeit at low speed) and applies status effects such as Bio, Doom, and Blind. Immune to Poison, Petrification, Confusion, Curse, and Doom/Death. Can sacrifice health for a ST nuke or to AoE. Can cast Arcana spells. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF The Four Heroes of Light: Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. Deal increased damage as %HP decreases. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF13 Lightning Returns: Can sacrifice HP for additional damaging effects. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2008: Just a slower, hard-hitting attack mode for Cecil. As an AI job, it is a stepping stone leading to Mystic Knight and Berserker. No lifesteal capabilities.
• Dissidia 2012: Simply adds an HP-sacrificing Attack, Shadow Bringer. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Airborne Brigade: Requires BLM and WAR. Sacrifices HP to deal additional damage. No lifesteal capabilities.
• FF Tactics (WotL): Drains HP or MP to maintain a throughput-increasing buff and can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can absorb both MP and HP.
• FF Dimensions: Sacrifices HP (Darkness or Onyx Wave) or MP (Ebony Slash) to deal additional damage. Lifesteal effect only affects auto-attacks, at a mere 10% of damage dealt. Increased relative range via the Backliner trait.
• FF XI: Has access to Black Magic, though less than as available to BLM or even RDM. Can sacrifice HP to deal additional damage. Can mimic the effect of wielding a Blood Sword via the Blood Weapon skill once per hour, gaining health equal to damage dealt with basic attacks.

That's 3... out of 12 games with a playable "Dark Knight". But, sure, let's pretend lifesteal is somehow long-historied and exclusive attachment to DRK, let alone more integral or prevalent than HP-sacrificing skills such that XIV's lifesteal capacities ought be exclusive to DRK (even though Warrior, historically, sees as much use of lifesteal and they're both outdone by any Black Magic casters in games where Drain is a player-accessible spell), while lifesteal itself has been given to many a character that has nothing in common with DRK...

On this other scale... I would love and prefer that Dark Knight in FFXIV has the self-sacrificial Blood Magic that it has almost always had, but... that is never going to happen. I already gave up on Dark Knight, in that sense, as it will never be what I want it to be, whether that is similar to Dark Warrior, or similar to previous FF franchise Dark Knight versions... the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, is probably the most close that FFXIV Dark Knight will ever get to, and still fall short of, Blood Magic; which is the reason why I like the idea of Dark Knight actions with the convert-damage-into-HP self-heal effect, which Ironically.. would go well with the self-sacrificial Blood Magic, much sorrow...

I don't think that it matters which tank is the 'lifesteal tank'. What matters is that each job provides a distinct gameplay experience without giving any one job a significant advantage over the alternatives.[...] / [...]I do want to see the tank jobs commit more clearly to a central theme or mechanic.[...] / [...]What I dislike is when the concepts get diluted. What's even worse is when another job gains access to your unique job flavour, while keeping their own unique identity.

again on a different scale(aiya, so much typing...), I agree with just about all of that. SE aught to hire some of the forum posters as job designers, even...

[Vatom]

Changing subject now aren't we?

When? Did I? Did you really read or skim and sulk? I see you haven't comment on anything else.

I said it was funny you talked about WAR/PLD dmg and then changed the narrative again and yes you did say diamond but what was that example used for... I wait...
I elaborated on this in the post you quote I'm sure you didn't really read it through or I wouldn't have to explain.
I stated it was funny ...Yes. I also said no shade sorry forget not everyone uses the same slang. It was simply spotting something and commenting on it no insults but here we are.

PLD Never came close to be a god like WAR in this patch. Ask around."

*Just to note if ever questioned*

But Im not here to throw shade simple to hear out a WAR main that doesn't feel like his class is sufficient and I do agree with him on most parts

And It seem DRK who been here long enough knew who I'm while you have no idea.

And who might that be? Are you some celeb?... Your account get band and you had to make a new one? Youtuber?
I don't care about your personal life but I'm waiting for the big reveal.
Still haven't answered my question What is a real DRK? plz I need it or I can't tell my friends

before you start suspect people trolling You might want to look in the mirror to see who keep support OP that keep saying "PLD is god" and Clemency is the best heal in game.

I would but I seem to have been baited into responding to someone special big BIG! Celebrity here watch out!. Inspired by Samurai Jack (TM)

Long story short you have said nothing, brought nothing to the table and elaborated on nothing

I want to believe you I really do! but I've gotten nothing to say otherwise.

Reminds me of middle school when you try to lie and say you have the new gamboy game to a group of kids but you left it at home so the teacher wouldn't take it
Then they ask you about it and you can't give straight answers

Would have won the cup if it weren't for that second attempt to trade DRK's Life Drain away to make Barrier more stronger.

Apart of my really want to respect you and talk about DRK but the way you go about things disappoints me to intense levels

[ninninin]

When? Did I? Did you really read or skim and sulk? I see you haven't comment on anything else.

I said it was funny you talked about WAR/PLD dmg and then changed the narrative again and yes you did say diamond but what was that example used for... I wait...
I elaborated on this in the post you quote I'm sure you didn't really read it through or I wouldn't have to explain.
I stated it was funny ...Yes. I also said no shade sorry forget not everyone uses the same slang. It was simply spotting something and commenting on it no insults but here we are.





And who might that be? Are you some celeb?... Your account get band and you had to make a new one? Youtuber?
I don't care about your personal life but I'm waiting for the big reveal.
Still haven't answered my question What is a real DRK? plz I need it or I can't tell my friends



I would but I seem to have been baited into responding to someone special big BIG! Celebrity here watch out!. Inspired by Samurai Jack (TM)

Long story short you have said nothing, brought nothing to the table and elaborated on nothing

I want to believe you I really do! but I've gotten nothing to say otherwise.

Reminds me of middle school when you try to lie and say you have the new gamboy game to a group of kids but you left it at home so the teacher wouldn't take it
Then they ask you about it and you can't give straight answers



Apart of my really want to respect you and talk about DRK but the way you go about things disappoints me to intense levels

Yes, yes, just give support OP despite what he show. Pretty sure anyone can see how right you are by now. Kiddo. You talking about respect make me want to puke and it funny how you act like whether you're disappointed or not was a big deal. I would love to see is there anyone feel the need to impress you?

[Axxion]

[QUOTE=Vatom;5623766]When? Did I? Did you really read or skim and sulk? I see you haven't comment on anything else.

you might want to check there post history

[Vatom]

[QUOTE=Axxion;5623801]

When? Did I? Did you really read or skim and sulk? I see you haven't comment on anything else.

you might want to check there post history

Please enlighten me I dont understand.