Is Minfilia always useless ?

[Eloah]

The problem with declaring that Ryne is a shard buddy of Minfilia's is something I've already tackled in this thread. It doesn't gel at all with Ryne's apparent lack of the Echo.

Why would she need the Echo to be a shard buddy, there is nothing suggesting that it is a requirement for split souls to have similar abilities. Plus while nothing is stated outright, we know Ryne has something, but no name is given, whether it's the Echo or the Blessing of Light is unknown. However, we do know that her potential lack of the Echo is not the reason she lost control of herself in Eden. As we have encountered others without the Echo who have maintained their "sanity" upon becoming a Primal. We also know that prior to absorbing Minfilia, Ryne is able to sense, and is immune to the Sin Eaters corruption. Again while nothing is stated, why wouldn't these be hints of the Echo, and it's just how it developed in Ryne. Another thing we learn later is that the Echo is present within everyone, it just needs to be unlocked.

But, as I said, all of this is moot with them merging. Regardless of what they were before, they are one now. And as I stated, there are strong hints that only a split soul can fully remerge.

[CrystalPenguin]

Minifilia can still come back. They can do anything to bring any character back. Hopefully she does come back, because Hydealen did her dirty. I think after the catastrophe at the end of ARR. Hydealen took Minifilia under her wing only to use her. Like how the Ascians use the Empire

[Rosenstrauch]

Why would she need the Echo to be a shard buddy

Because Minfilia did have the Echo, just like the unknown Ancient her soul originally belonged to. All other explicit or implicit pairs—the WoL and Ardbert, Unukalhai and Nyelbert, and all of the sundered Ascians, all of them possess the Echo as well. But Ryne, apparently, does not.

Plus while nothing is stated outright, we know Ryne has something, but no name is given, whether it's the Echo or the Blessing of Light is unknown.

This is incorrect. Ryne is explicitly stated to have the Blessing of Light shortly after her first onscreen appearance. She also comments on having it at several points in the story, with the latest being in 5.3, where she remarks that the (Blank) of Light shades summoned to attack the Scions bear the same blessing as both you and her. Notably, that last one is after it's made clear that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but rather an intrinsic part of a soul's being.

As we have encountered others without the Echo who have maintained their "sanity" upon becoming a Primal.

I would not describe "screaming in agony mere seconds after summoning Shiva" as "maintaining her sanity". Plus, Gaia rather explicitly points out that Ryne is not the one in control during the fight. Possessing the Echo is an explicit requirement for controlling a primal in this fashion. It's the very reason both Zenos and Misija sought to copy the Echo from others via the Resonance Chambers.

Another thing we learn later is that the Echo is present within everyone, it just needs to be unlocked.

This is just straight up wrong. What we learn is that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn. It's still exceedingly rare, and very few present for the star showers Elidibus created awoke to it.

[Eloah]

Because Minfilia did have the Echo, just like the unknown Ancient her soul originally belonged to. All other explicit or implicit pairs—the WoL and Ardbert, Unukalhai and Nyelbert, and all of the sundered Ascians, all of them possess the Echo as well. But Ryne, apparently, does not.

The Echo is merely a fragment of the creation magics all Ancients possessed, this is what we learned in Shadowbringers. It is stated that everyone has the potential to unlock the Echo, they just need a reminder of it, like the view of the star shower.

.This is incorrect. Ryne is explicitly stated to have the Blessing of Light shortly after her first onscreen appearance. She also comments on having it at several points in the story, with the latest being in 5.3, where she remarks that the (Blank) of Light shades summoned to attack the Scions bear the same blessing as both you and her. Notably, that last one is after it's made clear that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but rather an intrinsic part of a soul's being.

Truthfully, I couldn't remember which she had as I knew it was one and not the other; it has been a while since I completed the game. But I will say several secondary sources still indicate she has the Echo. Whether these sources listed this fact pre or post merge is beyond my knowledge. And I did not want to make any false claims, so I left things a bit ambiguous.

. I would not describe "screaming in agony mere seconds after summoning Shiva" as "maintaining her sanity". Plus, Gaia rather explicitly points out that Ryne is not the one in control during the fight. Possessing the Echo is an explicit requirement for controlling a primal in this fashion. It's the very reason both Zenos and Misija sought to copy the Echo from others via the Resonance Chambers.

You misinterpreted what I said. I stated we knew of others who maintained their "sanity", not that Ryne maintained hers. It's clear she went crazy. The only "visible" difference we've seen between those entities, is the ability to survive after being defeated (Ysayle, Zenos, Ryne, Misija) verse dissipating (Thordan and Yotsuyu). However, we do see that with enough damage, even an individual who should "survive" can dissipate as well (Ysayle)

. This is just straight up wrong. What we learn is that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn. It's still exceedingly rare, and very few present for the star showers Elidibus created awoke to it.

No, this is not wrong. As I said, and as you seem to understand, based on an earlier statement you made, the Echo is merely a fragment of the creation magics all Ancients possessed. The people just need a way a awakening it, which is what the star shower is meant to do. However, just because someone sees the star shower doesn't mean they will awaken that power, if at all.

[Rosenstrauch]

Good God, I should not be doing this while I have a headache...



The Echo is not creation magic, nor is it ever stated to be so. Nor is it ever stated that everyone has the potential to unlock it. Here, the text:

What, am I to reveal my plans simply because you asked?
Nay, I think not─though the stars I acknowledge mine. A convenient illusion apt to awaken what little is left of the power that once resided in your sundered souls.

That which you and yours call the Echo.

And an echo it is. Of a symphony. But a fraction of what men, in their completeness, once possessed.

Even those among you who tower over others in the gift have only the faintest trace of it.

But though sundered and forgotten, through death and mocking rebirth, it has persisted. A whisper of our past, burned into your very aether─along with the sight of our end.

Through the rekindling of memory, I have awoken the ability─just as Hydaelyn is wont to do when She has need of new minions.

It seems fairly clear to me that not awakening to the Echo in that moment didn't mean that the majority present just needed to watch a few more star showers before Echo Puberty kicked in. If they don't have it, they can't awaken to it.

Everything primals

I doubt there's any correlation between individuals surviving their primal being defeated versus dissipating and those same individuals possessing the Echo or otherwise. To be frank, I think the whole "dissipation" thing is a stylistic choice. Ysayle dissipated because they wanted her death to look like she was "crying", so to speak. Thordan went out the same way because ceasing to exist out of sheer terror was powerful imagery. Yotsuyu didn't disspate—yes, I checked—because they wanted to have Goesetsu crying over her corpse.

But my point from the beginning is specifically centered on the Echo's ability to control primals, something we learned from Ysayle's summoning of Shiva. This was carried forward all the way to Shadowbringers, first with Zenos backing the creation of the Resonance Chambers specifically to give himself the Echo and then using his Resonant powers to hijack Shinryu, then with Misija using that same technology so she could copy this feat with Gunnhildr and Save the Queen, before copying Ysayle's feat by becoming Gunnhildr herself.

In all of the above cases, the writers are not subtle about the Echo's necessity. Without the Echo, they would not have been able to do this.

Where things get hazy is with the cases where the individual using a primal like this is not known to have the Echo: Louisoix with Phoenix, Thordan with Thordan, Yotsuyu with Tsukuyomi, and Ryne with Shiva.

Thordan and Ryne are both in the odd place of having never explicitly stated to have/not have the Echo, though given Thordan was able to temper the Heaven's Ward long before our fight with him, I'm inclined to believe he did have the Echo.

In Ryne's case, the only scene off the top of my head that suggests she has the Echo is her journey to Amh Araeng with us, wherein we have an Echo vision and Ryne is seen clutching her head just a moment before it. But since Ryne never comments on this after that fact, nor does she ever state that she's had strange visions like this at any point in the story, I'm inclined to believe this one moment is simple misdirection. And as I've also said, there is evidence to suggest she does not have it, some of which, such as her not being able to hear Hydaelyn, is pretty cut and dry.

As for Louisoix and Yotsuyu, they are an incredible mess. The former gets a pass because the whole Phoenix thing was written before they codified the interaction between the Echo and incarnate summoning, and the handwave they used to push away the issue is Louisoix saying that "Phoenix wasn't a real primal". That is a can of worms unto itself, however. As for Yotsuyu, the developers have gone on the record in interviews saying that Tsukuyomi was how Yotsuyu imagined she would be if she were a goddess, or something to that effect. It's a convoluted explanation meant to handwave away why Yotsuyu seemed to be in control, even though she couldn't have been. It would've been simpler to just say she had the Echo and nobody knew, but it is what it is.

[Eloah]

stuff

Okay, Primal stuff aside, since it eventually becomes irrelevant to the topic of what the Echo is in the long run, and becomes a topic all its own.

But you realize that the quote you shared is exactly what I have been saying. The power that, "men in their completeness, once possessed" are the creation magics. Additionally, just because they have that power within them doesn't mean they are able to unlock it. It's the same with people irl, you could have the chance to get an illness, but that doesn't mean you will. Ultimately, we are saying the same thing about the Echo.

[Iscah]

Because Minfilia did have the Echo, just like the unknown Ancient her soul originally belonged to. All other explicit or implicit pairs—the WoL and Ardbert, Unukalhai and Nyelbert, and all of the sundered Ascians, all of them possess the Echo as well. But Ryne, apparently, does not.

If the Echo – or specifically, the awakened Echo in a sundered mortal – is essentially a product of the right PTSD trigger, then it is possible for Ryne to have the potential to awaken the Echo without actively "having it".

The Echo is not creation magic, nor is it ever stated to be so. Nor is it ever stated that everyone has the potential to unlock it. Here, the text:

What, am I to reveal my plans simply because you asked?
Nay, I think not─though the stars I acknowledge mine. A convenient illusion apt to awaken what little is left of the power that once resided in your sundered souls.

That which you and yours call the Echo.

And an echo it is. Of a symphony. But a fraction of what men, in their completeness, once possessed.

Even those among you who tower over others in the gift have only the faintest trace of it.

But though sundered and forgotten, through death and mocking rebirth, it has persisted. A whisper of our past, burned into your very aether─along with the sight of our end.

Through the rekindling of memory, I have awoken the ability─just as Hydaelyn is wont to do when She has need of new minions.

I agree that the Echo is not established to be creation magic, but I do take that description to say that everyone once possessed "the symphony" as Elidibus puts it.

The phrase "men in their completeness" seems (at least by my understanding) to be talking about everyone who was complete, not select individuals.

[Vyrerus]

The discussion here makes me wish they'd do some more showing with The Echo. I know they don't want to make it concrete as to what is is, exactly, but every time Elidibus calls it, "The Gift." I wonder many things.

Who/What gifted it to The Ancients? What are the powers of someone who possesses it in all of its splendor/has the whole orchestra/whole ensemble/Source Sound. If the Unsundered had it, in its complete state, then it seems like we're SOL at seeing what it was capable of, outside of just re-examining history with an Echo vision of our own.

I imagine that it's something along the lines of every Echo power they've come up with, all rolled together into one, but people being people, some excelled at specific abilities. Those abilities excelled at, are what their souls kept most.

Visions of/Reliving the past of someone else.
Visions of/Living through the future.
Ensorcelling/compelling others with your voice? - Uh, this one was just something people said Minfilia Warde was capable of, but I never saw an example to give truth to the hearsay.
Fusing Souls - Ascian Primes

[Neoyoshi]

I'm surprised I don't see more threads about Lyse being the useless one.

Disclaimer: I love Lyse. She's my fantasy Monk Waifu.

[Brightamethyst]

I'm surprised I don't see more threads about Lyse being the useless one.

Lyse was set up to fail. Failure, and having to back back and play catch up was a huge thing in SB so most of her victories happened off screen while the losses were front and center.