1.22 - 1.22a - 1.22b changes

[Aceofspades]

[QUOTE=kro;690222]Ace, your reading comprehension and writing skills leave much to be desired.

The following is taken from the patch notes for 1.20:

Fact #1:

GLA and PLD get a secondary damage bonus from STR and MND.

Fact #2:

MRD and WAR get a secondary damage bonus from STR and VIT.

Conclusions:

-Adding VIT to a MRD or WAR increases its survivability as well as its ability to deal damage.
-Adding VIT to a GLA or PLD only increases its survivability.

Therefore, VIT is more beneficial to a MRD/WAR because it serves two purposes instead of just one.

GLA and PLD do not get any extra bonuses to damage from VIT. They get it from STR and MND. What people have been arguing is that GLA and PLD should have gotten these bonuses from VIT rather than STR since most people would logically stack VIT on a tank.[/QUOTE

Right, not argueing that, I am simply saying, reguardless of what kind of stats give a damage boost, why on earth would anyone in their right mind prioritize stats on a PLD tank to deal damage. Even tho war gets no "bonus" for accuracy its obvious that WAR would certainly benifit from it, all that dd would otherwise be worthless. There is no way PLD can keep its turtle tank like abilties and stack stats that encourage high enough dps to be worthy of note.
I agree, if there were gona add a damage bonus stat, VIT would be far more benificial to PLD, HOWEVER, If I were se and I didnt want players developing tanks that not only deflected damage realy well, but also self healed/buffed realy well AND did DPS realy well then I would purposly make them choose stats in wich they could not have the best of both worlds. This is the apearent problem with war, because they do all of that , except damage deflection, realy well , players have stacked WARs in many party set ups defeating Yoshi's admited purpose of the Jobs. Wich is why WAR is being adjusted to the point in wich player may have a good tank OR a good dd, not both.
Increasing damage on PLD , IMO, has more to do with the future PVP aspects. PLD is expected to do little damage but most certainly needed a DPS buff to give it any chance in a PVP role. I seriously doubt any DPS buff would make PLD a suitable DD class.
Back to the point at hand. I strongly recomend stacking stats on PLD in this order of presidence : DEF > VIT > MND > DEX (for acc and block rate) > Emnity + > HP (keep in mind HP comes with VIT and your max HP increases with VIT, after 2.2b PLD will share the same "max hp boost" that war currently has, at that time High vit stats will be more valuable then HP if its not already.

[Raymeo]

lol your right , wait a tic, GLA.... is gladiator PLD? Nooo that cant be right , maybe thats why when you change to PLD ( a completly diffrent job) your HP gose down and mp gose up

Which is a problem that the devs have stated an intention to fix shortly, and therefore an unintended mistake and a moot point.

Sauce:

Even though we just released patch 1.22, I’d like to talk a bit about the plans for job/class balance adjustments that are to take place in patch 1.22b.

Paladin and Gladiator

We will be getting rid of the max HP reduction when changing from gladiator to paladin and as a result will be making adjustments to increase their max HP. Additionally, we will be enhancing shield blocks.

Also, take note of the way that they put this change under the heading "Paladin AND Gladiator." Like EVERY other job in the game, Paladin shares its formulas with its respective class, which is Gladiator in the case of Paladins. So to answer your question (even though it was sarcastically rhetorical), is Paladin a completely different job from Gladiator? No, it's the exact same job (at least when it comes to stats and attributes, which is what you're arguing about). Again, you're just digging yourself deeper. Quit while you're... well... while you're not as behind as you could be.

Next, take note of the two things that they're focusing on fixing for Paladins in this patch: Blocks and HP, being the two fundamentals of a meat shield, which are tied to DEX and VIT respectively. Even though those are obviously the two most important aspects of a meat shield, the fact that these fixes are planned would indicate that Paladins are actually experiencing a deficiency in those areas, when they should be the two areas that Paladins excel the most in. Why is this happening? It's happening because the game is encouraging Paladins to cap their STR and MND first, before thinking about VIT and DEX. All that Waldo is saying is that these problems wouldn't exist if those two important tanking stats, DEX and VIT for Block and HP, were simply patched to be Paladin's primary stats over STR and MND. It seems like an obvious solution, and nobody's saying that STR and MND shouldn't still be important to Paladins. They should remain important. They just shouldn't be the first stats that we're encouraged to cap.

----------

I understand what you mean when you wonder why Paladins are choosing STR and MND over VIT and DEX to begin with. After all, STR affects damage and MND affects heals, neither of which is a primary focus for tanking when compared to blocks, defense, and HP. However there are a lot of things to consider here:

(1) Your allocated attributes as a party-focused Paladin get locked into your solo-focused Gladiator class as well, and nobody wants to end up soloing as a pure turtle with no damage-dealing capabilities. (2) While damage from STR doesn't help with survivability, any boost in damage helps with generating a little boost in Enmity, which is also important to a tank. That's not to mention a boost in kill speed as well, which is always desirable for any class. If a paladin wants to stack VIT instead of STR in order to grab some extra tank survivability, then they end up sacrificing enmity generation and kill speed as a result. WAR is not faced with these dilemmas. Both VIT and STR provide them with all of the above. Not only does this remove any need for them to choose between enmity and kill speed or survivability, but it also ends up doublingthe effectiveness that they gain in all of the above areas. (3) Practically the same thing, but with MND. MND affects our damage, and the enmity generated by our enmity combos like flat blade. We're forced into yet ANOTHER decision between kill speed and enmity or survivabilty. Why should we be forced TWICE into to choosing between extra enmity and kill speed via MND and/or STR, and extra survivability via VIT and/or DEX, when WAR doesn't have to choose between anything at all? Everything about a WAR is handed to them all at once, with everything being tied into the two stats of STR and VIT, period.

So to resolve your confusion, Paladins are choosing MND and STR over VIT and DEX for a couple of reasons. One is that it keeps Gladiator as a viable option for solo play. The other is that it's the only way for Paladins to compete with the enmity generation and kill speed of Warriors. If you can't compete with Warriors in these areas, then (A) you won't be able to keep hate off of Warriors anymore, so Warriors will just end up tanking anyway, and (B) nobody will invite you to begin with because you'll slow them down more than a Warrior. So if you want to have a chance in hell at tanking, then you need to stack your STR and MND first, or at least one of the two (most likely being MND for the added bonus of Holy Succor potency). Survivability is an afterthought until you can secure yourself a position in a party and maintain a high enough level of threat to actually tank.

[Zozma]

So to resolve your confusion, Paladins are choosing MND and STR over VIT and DEX for a couple of reasons. One is that it keeps Gladiator as a viable option for solo play. The other is that it's the only way for Paladins to compete with the enmity generation and kill speed of Warriors. If you can't compete with Warriors in these areas, then (A) you won't be able to keep hate off of Warriors anymore, so Warriors will just end up tanking anyway, and (B) nobody will invite you to begin with because you'll slow them down more than a Warrior. So if you want to have a chance in hell at tanking, then you need to stack your STR and MND first, or at least one of the two (most likely being MND for the added bonus of Holy Succor potency). Survivability is an afterthought until you can secure yourself a position in a party and maintain a high enough level of threat to actually tank.

QFT.

Can't agree more on those points. PLD have nothing to offer atm over WAR. If I'm stuck with both a WAR and PLD in same PT for say..Ifrit, I'd let the WAR tank and the PLD "dd"

[Dzian]

If a paladin wants to stack VIT instead of STR in order to grab some extra tank survivability, then they end up sacrificing enmity generation and kill speed as a result.

This is so true. doesnt matter how much def vit and hp you have if your not generating enough emnity to tank.

though i suppose you could say it helps your survivavbility alot if your not the one getting hit but LOL SARCASM

[Tango]

The shield mechanics adjustments that we have already in game make PLD a very viable tank. If I'm going to tank in a pickup group I think I'd take PLD for the fact that I have more tools to help survive longer when the WHM is not doing his job. Also the enmity threashold is less of a factor in pugs since the avg player's DPS ceiling is well below the PLD's enmity ceiling. So for a pure safety aspect I'm going to take PLD currently. If the group gets going smooth I'll swap back to WAR so that we can kill faster.

When they adjust collusion and nerf WAR's steel cyclone, a MAJOR portion of WAR's merits are gone from a tanking perspective and I feel PLD will become the tank of choice.

[1clou]

Why is it that everyone here can see where Gla/Pld falls short in comparison to War except for you Aceofspades? There wasn't even a sentence or phrase where I said Pld could not do anything right...War although like everyone else sees....does it better in nearly every respect. The only elitist here is you. Every single thread you have something "butt hurt" as you call it to say about how lame everyone else is, where as everyone else here has something to contribute while still being able to acknowledge points of interest in a calm and objective manner. As far as striking a nerve I would have to say your wrong, although if hitting a nerve means getting tired of you being an arrogant, self righteous, condescending, blatantly narrow minded toad to others and their thoughts on a subject then yea I guess you did.*/clap* You clearly never understood what I was getting at

If they made corresponding jobs get a amplified boost from certain attributes I think it would help a lot with job class uniqueness. for Example Pd/Gla would get a boost from how potent VIT would affect def, hp pool, dmg received from ws's. All hypothetical, but I think something like that would help a fair bit given that other classes got a unique trait boost that was relevant to the class.

The fact that Pld does have to choose between attributes is where pld falls greatly short like you said Raymeo. Why pick a tank that can only do one of these things well, when a different class can do it equally as well and still offer something more to the table. Why pick apples or oranges when I can have a fruit salad.

Overall, with some luck 1.22b will help balance things out between all the classes. But until then hopefully the Devs pick up on at least one or few of these ideas they could roll with for Gla/Pld in the future to help balance things out.

edit added:
I do agree with you Tango, I'm hoping with the next patch that like you say and as Devs have hinted at that they do adjust the overall tanking performance of Pld and War. But if it isn't anything relatively drastic/moderate I still feel people will still prefer War for tanking which would be disappointing.

[Hebrilith]

[HB]
I do agree with you Tango, I'm hoping with the next patch that like you say and as Devs have hinted at that they do adjust the overall tanking performance of Pld and War. But if it isn't anything relatively drastic/moderate I still feel people will still prefer War for tanking which would be disappointing.

I have a niggling doubt that the dev team wont do enough to put PLD back on the "preferred tank list". The margin between PLD and WAR is so great that only a major edit will do anything remotely close enough, which the dev team may not do for fear of "imbalancing"?

[Tango]

From the elitist school of thought PLD is not used for the sheer fact that enmity threashold is higher on WAR when you combo it with collusion it allows your dd's to go 100% from the start of a fight. PLD is much more equipped to handle issues when learning new content since its solo survivability is greater.

[SwordCoheir]

From the elitist school of thought PLD is not used for the sheer fact that enmity threashold is higher on WAR when you combo it with collusion it allows your dd's to go 100% from the start of a fight. PLD is much more equipped to handle issues when learning new content since its solo survivability is greater.

It's not just that, PLD's defenses don't offer enough over WAR's defenses to make up for the giant DPS gap between PLD and WAR. Hell even the second weakest overall DPS job (PLD being the weakest) can usually be within 1k-1.5k of the highest DPS jobs which is at least 3x times or more the amount of damage PLD can pull off in one fight. Even with our abilities and Enmity combos PLD still can't get a good solid threshold well above the other good DPS jobs (due to recast timers) without at least closing the overall damage gap to produce better enmity on our enmity combos, or giving us some innate enmity bonus.

I kind of want to stay away from more JA spam because the animation delay affects our TP accumulation from auto attacks, and we already spam enough JA's as it is.

[syntaxlies]

For the weaponskill buffs I wouldn't be surprised to see something along the lines of:

Riot Blade - Positional requirements removed/relaxed (front or side), TP cost reduced to 1500 or 1750, higher chance to proc debuff, recast time reduced (60s)

Rage of Halone - Accuracy penalty removed, combo bonus of increased damage

Goring Blade - recast time reduced

Orrrrrrrr maybe they'll just buff the damage on all of them. Those 80s recast times really hurt.

I like riot blade for if someone pulls hate you can use it real fast and get hate back(mob turns and faces his back to you). I think that was the concept for it since they made it ranged. having that much tp in an emergency situation can be a problem though.