Each expansion I get hyped and also worried about more skills.

[ForteNightshade]

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

[Nyarlha]

You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

[ForteNightshade]

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

[Ultimatecalibur]

If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

From what I can tell Bard maintained roughly the same number class/job of abilities between StB and ShB. It lost Foe Requiem and Misery's End (pretty much a useless ogcd) and replaced them with Shadowbite and Apex Arrow.

This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

One thing you are not accounting for is that several of the redesigns were done in ways to allow for future growth. Most of those jobs will not require as much pruning to include new abilities.

[Shurrikhan]

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

Yes and no. The button cap is important, but consider also what's being given, and in place of what. A lot of the times it's less a matter of having a capped capacity as just a lack of understanding of the job kits being changed or foresight as to how those changes would affect play.

Take Monk for example. In removing Fracture and Touch of Death, they killed Monk's ability to avoid positional requirements n times per 18|30 seconds, only to then have to go back and return that capacity via Role Actions that do not add to or fit job identity like True North and, later, Riddle of Earth. We lost more integral actions that better rewarded understanding of a given fight and provided useful rotational flexibility just to get... bland situationals that are available only much later in the experience.

Take Dragoon. In making its combo longer --rather than the two Dragon skills having any bankable effects, or even effects unique to themselves post-HW -- while also removing more modular actions like Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize, they reduced the modularity in DRG's actions which then removed allowances for further rotational complexity.

We're not dealing merely with a button cap; we're dealing with a class dev team (duo? trio?) that only ever actively dumbs down the jobs they make any notable modifications to.

As Forte mentioned, job button counts are not equal, or even all that close to equal. Neither, even, are effective button counts (imagine every skill that could be consolidated, such as Ley Lines<>Between the Lines, Enochian->Blizzard IV<>Fire IV, Umbral Soul<>Transpose; RDM's melee chain, Verstone<>Veraero (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Verfire<>Verthunder (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Scorch replacing Verholy/Verflare, Impact replacing either AoE upon Dualcast or Swiftcast; Chaos Thrust Chain(+2), Full Thrust Chain(+2), Jump<>Mirage Dive, Blood of the Dragon<>Stardiver; etc., etc. and then consider what those jobs' button counts would be).

[Deceptus]

We're not dealing merely with a button cap; we're dealing with a class dev team (duo? trio?) that only ever actively dumbs down the jobs they make any notable modifications to.

As Forte mentioned, job button counts are not equal, or even all that close to equal. Neither, even, are effective button counts (imagine every skill that could be consolidated, such as Ley Lines<>Between the Lines, Enochian->Blizzard IV<>Fire IV, Umbral Soul<>Transpose; RDM's melee chain, Verstone<>Veraero (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Verfire<>Verthunder (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Scorch replacing Verholy/Verflare, Impact replacing either AoE upon Dualcast or Swiftcast; Chaos Thrust Chain(+2), Full Thrust Chain(+2), Jump<>Mirage Dive, Blood of the Dragon<>Stardiver; etc., etc. and then consider what those jobs' button counts would be).

You want to kick up a hornets nest on these forums? Even think about mentioning button consolidation.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mbo-structure/

[ForteNightshade]

You want to kick up a hornets nest on these forums? Even think about mentioning button consolidation.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mbo-structure/

Because every time someone mentions it, there is always this blind assumption if we just consolidate the combos suddenly we'll get brand new innovations and wicked new abilities to replace everything despite there being absolutely zero precedence. In fact, they've shown the precise opposite. The far more likelihood scenario is like Shurrikhan said: a job like Dragoon losing several buttons and getting back maybe two that you actually use with regularity.

I'd be far more open to combo consolidation if I actually believed they would give, again Dragoon, five new abilities (both GCD and oGCD) I'll actually press frequently. I don't want them removing the combos just so people can fit more mounts on their hotbars.

[Nyarlha]

Because every time someone mentions it, there is always this blind assumption if we just consolidate the combos suddenly we'll get brand new innovations and wicked new abilities to replace everything despite there being absolutely zero precedence. In fact, they've shown the precise opposite. The far more likelihood scenario is like Shurrikhan said: a job like Dragoon losing several buttons and getting back maybe two that you actually use with regularity.

I'd be far more open to combo consolidation if I actually believed they would give, again Dragoon, five new abilities (both GCD and oGCD) I'll actually press frequently. I don't want them removing the combos just so people can fit more mounts on their hotbars.

From how they've been going, you're going to lose something anyway. Might as well go with combo consolidation rather than remove things like Life Surge and Spineshatter Dive just to make room for new things. You could have kept Phlebotomize and Heavy Trust if they consolidated combos earlier.

[Ultimatecalibur]

You could have kept Phlebotomize and Heavy Trust if they consolidated combos earlier.

I'm pretty certain those would have both been removed even if button bloat wasn't a problem.

Phlebotomize was pruned in StB with a lot of other non-rotational single gcd DoTs (i.e. Fracture, Touch of Death, Leaden Shot, Scourge, etc.) due to the shear number of debuffs and DoTs in HW causing problems when fighting World Boss FATEs, S-rank hunts and Alliance Raid Bosses. Jobs like SMN could not effectively participate as often their DoT could not be applied.

Heavy Thrust was likely removed due to them only wanting Dragoon to deal with 1 maintenance buff and Blood/Life of the Dragon which lets you use additional abilities is much more engaging than +10% damage dealt.

[ForteNightshade]

From how they've been going, you're going to lose something anyway. Might as well go with combo consolidation rather than remove things like Life Surge and Spineshatter Dive just to make room for new things. You could have kept Phlebotomize and Heavy Trust if they consolidated combos earlier.

Which I'd honestly prefer if given the choice. Why? On average, I'll press my combos anywhere from 15-20 times per fight; more if longer. I'll use Life Surge and Spineshatter Dive half as frequently if not even less. Therefore, combo consolidation worsens my gameplay as it'll reduce most of my activity to spamming 1222111112. Furthermore, Dragoon really doesn't need any abilities pruned. I already have four Dragon Sight macros because of the available hotbar space. So there is plenty of room for new abilities, especially if they only add one or two. On top of that, this also assumes they don't simply go the upgrade route. Jump became High Jump. There's no reason to believe they won't do something similar to Spineshatter.

As for Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize. Neither's removal had anything to do with button bloat. They specifically said they removed Heavy Thrust (and Straight Shot) because far too many casual players weren't utilizing them, thus causing a larger gap between players. Basically, they dumbed it down again after already nerfing Heavy Thrust in Stormblood. Phlebotomize was dropped due to their dislike of DoTs as it causes issues in large scale raids as bosses can only display 30 effects of any kind.