Endwalker Sch Question

[Absurdity]

Doesn't Ast dps and heal at the same time with no damage loss because of their 1.5s cast times and massive amounts of oGcd's.

Maybe I should've explained it better. AST is already an issue because it is the healer that is the least affected by having to heal. To the point where you almost want an AST just because they can cover most of the healing with no losses, allowing the other healer to dps more.

AST spells however still only do one or the other, I'm gonna ignore Earthly Star in this case because it is still exclusively planned as a healing tool, the damage is negligible outside of dungeon aoe.

Now imagine if you had a healer whose dps spells healed a target for 30% of the damage dealt, with each cast or DoT tick.

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

Healers never had a rotation but they atleast had some options.

But what also needs to be kept in mind is that healers in older expansions actually had to heal more and had less free oGCD healing options.

Right now you have the issue of healer dps options being reduced to mostly spamming a single button while also having lower healing requirements and more tools to instantly deal with that little required healing, leading to even less time spent healing and more time spent spamming that single ability.

[Semirhage]

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

I will continue to roll my eyes at the ludicrous argument that, even considering its premise true, boils down to "Ehhhhhhh whatever, your jobs have always been boring! You aren't allowed to ask for them to not be boring for this reason!"

Yes, pressing one button over and over and over again is boring. Who knew? It's not a rotation I'd ask for any job. So why is it somehow insane for healer mains to ask to not press one button over and over and over and over and over again?

[NobleWinter]

Did healers use to have varied and robust DPS rotations or is the community conveniently forgetting/omitting stuff again just to complain?

ARR Scholar was a legit green dps. We jokingly say green dps a lot but those were good times when it actually held true. You could tell it came from a dps class cause you were busy in all the right ways. So many dots! I miss it so much. Every healer should have been that enjoyable but it's obvious now they had more time to design the class back then becuase its only lost complexity and skills with every expansion.

[Brandedblade]

ARR Scholar was a legit green dps. We jokingly say green dps a lot but those were good times when it actually held true. You could tell it came from a dps class cause you were busy in all the right ways. So many dots! I miss it so much. Every healer should have been that enjoyable but it's obvious now they had more time to design the class back then becuase its only lost complexity and skills with every expansion.

Personally I consider Stormblood to be the peak of SCH's design. ARR was fine within its era for sure, but Heavensward Scholar was too powerful, iirc it could do like 2/3s of a dps' damage + plus could cover a fairly decent chunk of the healing in optimized settings. While Stormblood isn't perfect by any means (Miasma II and Ruin II where in poor and conflicting spots design wise in my opinion) I think it was a good compromise between accessibility and complexity.

[Hatstand]

Personally I consider Stormblood to be the peak of SCH's design. ARR was fine within its era for sure, but Heavensward Scholar was too powerful, iirc it could do like 2/3s of a dps' damage + plus could cover a fairly decent chunk of the healing in optimized settings. While Stormblood isn't perfect by any means (Miasma II and Ruin II where in poor and conflicting spots design wise in my opinion) I think it was a good compromise between accessibility and complexity.

I don’t think that being too powerful is really a good criticism, especially when it comes to dps. The Heavensward SCH felt good to play. They could have nerfed the dps potencies significantly and it would have felt the same to play, healing always comes first, and you always do as much damage as you can around the healing, however much that is. When it comes to healing potencies, it’s a bit more complicated because changing the healing potencies will change the way you use your kit, but generally speaking I think that if a kit is fun but the numbers aren’t right, you change the numbers, not the kit.

[Brandedblade]

I don’t think that being too powerful is really a good criticism, especially when it comes to dps. The Heavensward SCH felt good to play. They could have nerfed the dps potencies significantly and it would have felt the same to play, healing always comes first, and you always do as much damage as you can around the healing, however much that is. When it comes to healing potencies, it’s a bit more complicated because changing the healing potencies will change the way you use your kit, but generally speaking I think that if a kit is fun but the numbers aren’t right, you change the numbers, not the kit.

I disagree here. When dps is the main worthwhile metric in this game it means that if one of the healers had a significant edge in dps it will be far and away the best option. SCH was dealing significantly more damage then AST and SCH in that era.

And no, I agree, heavensward sch was FUN, but you know what else it was? needlessly complex and prone to discouraging good play in less skilled players, all those memes about SCH's just dpsing while putting the strain on their co-healers, while not accurate to high skill levels, existed for a reason. No to mention cleric stance was just so...unnecessarily convoluted and punishing. I understand, it feels good to overcome these challenges and know you're contributing on both the offense and defensive front, but this is not something I think we need to go back to.

This is why for the most part I prefer stormblood, it wasn't needlessly convoluted, but it also wasn't just spamming Broil the whole time. It was a compromise, it with a few more system tweaks to make the overall experience smoother is my 'ideal' version of SCH.

[Hatstand]

I disagree here. When dps is the main worthwhile metric in this game it means that if one of the healers had a significant edge in dps it will be far and away the best option. SCH was dealing significantly more damage then AST and SCH in that era.

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. My point was not that it is not an issue if one healer does more damage than the others. While healing is the main job of a healer, it’s a pass or fail job, so dps numbers is what will differentiate adequate healers. My point was that you can change how well a healer performs at dps by changing the potencies of their skills, rather than changing the function or number of skills. (Although it’s true that here you can only tune for best case, average case, or worst case, which means a healer with difficult dps may end up doing worse dps on average than a healer with easy dps, due to a smaller number of players getting it right. I’d consider that to be worth it to have a healer with something interesting to do in downtime).

If you can find a way of making healers fun for players like me, who enjoy trying to eke that little bit more out of their kit, (in their downtime as well as their uptime) without making them complex in a way that cause worse players to make mistakes, then go for it. But I don’t accept the argument that healers can’t be complex, fun, and punishing to those who make mistakes. BLM is also punishing to those who mess up, and the group is will die because a BLM messed up and the group failed a dps check just as they will if the healer was too caught up in dpsing to push their healer buttons. No one is saying that BLM needs to be simplified so that bad BLM players don’t cause problems for their groups.

[AngeliouxRein]

They didn’t even needed to touch SCH or AST. It was only WHM that desperately needed a boost. On DPS side of things, SCH should’ve stayed as the mobile DoT master, AST should’ve kept all of its buffs and had time related skills mixed in, while WHM should’ve been a pure DPS type like BLM (wind, water, aero, earth skills to rotate through). And with Sage coming in, that could’ve had the fastest of DPS skills with debuffs they could place on mobs and bosses (my take anyway, but gotta wait until the skill trailer to see what SE does )

[Brandedblade]

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. My point was not that it is not an issue if one healer does more damage than the others. While healing is the main job of a healer, it’s a pass or fail job, so dps numbers is what will differentiate adequate healers. My point was that you can change how well a healer performs at dps by changing the potencies of their skills, rather than changing the function or number of skills. (Although it’s true that here you can only tune for best case, average case, or worst case, which means a healer with difficult dps may end up doing worse dps on average than a healer with easy dps, due to a smaller number of players getting it right. I’d consider that to be worth it to have a healer with something interesting to do in downtime).

If you can find a way of making healers fun for players like me, who enjoy trying to eke that little bit more out of their kit, (in their downtime as well as their uptime) without making them complex in a way that cause worse players to make mistakes, then go for it. But I don’t accept the argument that healers can’t be complex, fun, and punishing to those who make mistakes. BLM is also punishing to those who mess up, and the group is will die because a BLM messed up and the group failed a dps check just as they will if the healer was too caught up in dpsing to push their healer buttons. No one is saying that BLM needs to be simplified so that bad BLM players don’t cause problems for their groups.

My thought it this. I do not consider juggling 5 different timers to be a decent way of creating flow, its needlessly complicated. I would rather see the design of a class be an ebb and flow type of thing. Like for scholar. I find the thought of juggling 5-6 dots needlessly complicated when you could create a more interesting gameplay loop in fewer buttons. I'd rather focus on creating something like that then cry about the good old days. I personally would rather see 1-2 dots with the dots feeding into something rewarding when you maintain them, like a more robust version of the fae guage system where you create a loop between your healing and dps, with measures in place to lean more towards one end without completely screwing over the other.

[Hatstand]

My thought it this. I do not consider juggling 5 different timers to be a decent way of creating flow, its needlessly complicated. I would rather see the design of a class be an ebb and flow type of thing. Like for scholar. I find the thought of juggling 5-6 dots needlessly complicated when you could create a more interesting gameplay loop in fewer buttons. I'd rather focus on creating something like that then cry about the good old days. I personally would rather see 1-2 dots with the dots feeding into something rewarding when you maintain them, like a more robust version of the fae guage system where you create a loop between your healing and dps, with measures in place to lean more towards one end without completely screwing over the other.

You wouldn’t hear me complaining about something new but interesting, either. It just seems wrong to throw away a fun system and replace it with nothing. Ultimately what is needed is a group of healer mains on the dev team who are given authority on healer design and who properly play test new healer designs. I can’t believe any healer main would sign off on the changes that we got.