How would you feel if shields had no upfront healing?

[Kabooa]

But you also said specifically in this very post that "(the) healing here (was) not for me." So you already don't like the healers that we currently have regardless of whether they're changed or not. Moreover, those of us who have been criticizing the healers have also been asking for more support, utility, and healing opportunities. DPSing as a healer deserves to be more fun, but we also want to need to DPS a lot less, particularly in relatively easy or older content. I for one have pitched multiple times that AST should just do almost no direct DPS outside of mainly just maintaining their DoT--That they should have GCD buffs that deal flat potency damage when other players attack, allowing you to contribute to RDPS without really having to attack enemies directly at all. When they aren't healing, they should be tossing out support left and right, not spamming Malefic. Wouldn't that be more in your favor?

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "Regardless of whether they are changed or not". I said they WERE not for me. Past tense. At the time. Just because then, continuing up to Stormblood, they were not for me doesn't mean changes over time cannot make them more favorable to me. They are not currently what I want, but there have been a few changes pushing at least White Mage into a direction I would.

You aren't the only person here advocating on what their version of Astrologian should be, nor are you representing, say, the "Well we can't have that because the system doesn't support it." crowd.

I don't disagree with having more damage options, nor moving to a more triage style of healing, but I disagree heavily with mimicking weaponskill combos and more DoTs. And if you don't understand why, you only have to go and play a few of the DPS jobs to understand how uninteresting those become once they stop being new.

[Maltothoris]

I mean that's the whole crux of the issue isn't it. How to make healers engaging with so many different viewpoints all tugging and pulling in all different directions. Many of us want support-orientated abilities for healers to be more prominent support or more variety in dps options.

That being said, I don't have much, if any, faith in SE in trying to make it better. The stuff that they thought that 4.0 lilies was ever a good idea when everyone and their grandma knew that it was bad is rather telling. I think the main issue I had though, was that they did nothing to ever make it better. The best we got was 4.05 when they made cure 1 100 percent. 4.2 basically was them admitting that lilies failed when they took bension from having the lily requirement. Also they never changed the lvl 68 trait during the entire lifespan of the expansion was another thing. So bad that in 4.5 they had to super buff assize as a bandaid before Shadowbringers.

Even if lilies are better now, it's still more "try your best to not use them unless it's movement or downtime."

[ty_taurus]

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say "Regardless of whether they are changed or not". I said they WERE not for me. Past tense. At the time. Just because then, continuing up to Stormblood, they were not for me doesn't mean changes over time cannot make them more favorable to me. They are not currently what I want, but there have been a few changes pushing at least White Mage into a direction I would.

You aren't the only person here advocating on what their version of Astrologian should be, nor are you representing, say, the "Well we can't have that because the system doesn't support it." crowd.

I don't disagree with having more damage options, nor moving to a more triage style of healing, but I disagree heavily with mimicking weaponskill combos and more DoTs. And if you don't understand why, you only have to go and play a few of the DPS jobs to understand how uninteresting those become once they stop being new.

But I didn't put words in your mouth. I was just changing the tense of the sentence since I was just quoting the part about healing since the conversation isn't really about tanks right now. The part about "regardless of whether they change or not" was simply stating that, if you aren't happy with how the healers are now, then it means my original question of "why defend the current healers?" isn't really being answered, and if they ended up changing even in a way you still weren't' happy with, the worst case scenario would be you'd stay in the same stance you're in now--not necessarily worse off. I personally would like to see as many people happy with the healers as possible, which is why I so desperately want them to each have their own unique ways of contributing to RDPS including the example of buff support--to give people who want to DPS as minimally as possible an option that can stay within the meta.

I also agree that WHM's lily system was a step forward for them, and I think most of us here are in the same boat. It's very simplistic and deserves more depth (which I do actually have faith that we will see to at least some degree), but it's a reasonable step forward even if SCH and AST took steps back.

What I ultimately want to see is SCH be the "Green DPS" offensive heavy healer, AST be the support oriented healer, and WHM be more balanced with a more detailed lily system that puts emphasis on GCD healing being ideal over Glare spamming rather than lilies just being a partial DPS forgiveness system. For WHM, I'd like to see Fluid Aura become a legitimate Water spell--a GCD spell with a slightly longer cooldown and charges that was instant cast. This would immediately give WHM a little more to work with DPS wise and would be one piece of relief for their clipping issues. I don't think that alone is enough, but even just that I think would actually help WHM's current design quite a bit.

[Semirhage]

I also agree that WHM's lily system was a step forward for them, and I think most of us here are in the same boat. It's very simplistic and deserves more depth (which I do actually have faith that we will see to at least some degree), but it's a reasonable step forward even if SCH and AST took steps back.

I have a decidedly minority opinion on that one. I don't think the current lily system is nearly as big a godsend as most of the forums say it is. It:

A) Came at a time that killed even more of their instant casts and removed a lot of weaving opportunity, which made WHM feel worse to play in that aspect than it did previously
B) Is a system that -yet again- encourages overhealing if you're hard up for an opportunity to move or weave
C) Misery encourages spamming lilies in between pulls just to get the nuke in dungeons, which is stupid bassackwards design as far as I'm concerned

WHM went from a functionally nonexistent job resource to one that encourages awkward, clippy overhealing play. That's a step...somewhere? Forward is a valid opinion I suppose. I don't think it's really that much better than Stormblood lilies. It may not be a trap to pay attention to it anymore, but it still encourages bizarre play. I'd rather they just, you know, make the job flow well, have actual decision-making, and not feel like you're fighting your kit's weaknesses to play it.

[Kabooa]

But I didn't put words in your mouth. I was just changing the tense of the sentence since I was just quoting the part about healing since the conversation isn't really about tanks right now. The part about "regardless of whether they change or not" was simply stating that, if you aren't happy with how the healers are now, then it means my original question of "why defend the current healers?" isn't really being answered, and if they ended up changing even in a way you still weren't' happy with, the worst case scenario would be you'd stay in the same stance you're in now--not necessarily worse off.

The worst case is they become less desirable, even more so than they were before, but really, there isn't much need to say more and derail further.

It's discouraging that it looks like White Mage's showcase was just another / upgraded Shield ability, which implies they've already backed away from the stated goal of 2 highly differentiated healer categories. However that's an issue with healing showcases in general - A ton of no context ability animations.

While I can appreciate them wanting to let us have those moments of discovery when we log in and open our action page to look and think about, even C U B E can't drive up hype just by looking at it.

[BungleBear]

What you are describing here is true and highlights a very interesting quirk that is unique to healing: the less you know about your job and the less you know about the encounter, the more fun healing is because the damage that you and your team takes is seemingly "unpredictable" (not actually unpredictable, but with low skill and/or experience, it can seem that way). This means your need for healing is something you aren't planning for and must adapt to on the fly, which is a thrilling and adrenaline-pumping experience. That said, this aspect is transient. The better you get at healing and the more you learn new fights, the more that thrill evaporates.

I'm not convinced that this phenomenon is unique to healers. Consider melee DPS, for example. When you start doing a new encounter, you're thinking about how to maintain maximum uptime. At first, you play it safe, but as you learn the fight, you start to test the limits. Think about the first time you try to greed a GCD, and it works! That would be pretty thrilling. But after you've figured out the timing so you know you can reliably greed the GCD, it's not very exciting any more. A new encounter is like a puzzle to solve. Everyone has their own little puzzles to solve within the larger puzzle. Solving the puzzle is more engaging than merely repeating the solution. But that applies to everyone, not only to healers.

Healing is dull and lifeless when you're doing the MSQ, when you're grinding FATEs, when you're doing Roulettes, when you're doing Beast Tribe Quests, when you're farming Extreme/Savage fights after having learned them, when you're farming unsynched content, when you're doing treasure map dungeons, when you're doing your 24-man alliance raids after the first few weeks when less people are failing mechanics, when you're hunting marks, when you're farming deep dungeons, when you've ultimately learned how to optimize your healing and thus have significantly more time to mash the Glareficoil button like you're playing a Mario Party minigame.

I don't think the activities you've listed are especially engaging for any role, not only for healers. But I think that's fine. Not all content needs to be super engaging. They call it "grinding" for a reason: it's just a mindless repetitive activity. I don't do treasure maps for engaging gameplay. I do them to have a laugh with friends. When I want content that requires a high level of focus and attention, I do savage or ultimate. But when I just want to relax and turn my brain off, I do an alliance raid or a jumping puzzle in the Gold Saucer, or whatever. I think it's good that the game provides this kind of variety.

It seems to me like you're looking for engaging gameplay in the wrong places. If you want to be challenged, don't grind fates, or do treasure maps, or farm fights that you've already cleared.

[Semirhage]

I'm not convinced that this phenomenon is unique to healers. Consider melee DPS, for example. When you start doing a new encounter, you're thinking about how to maintain maximum uptime. At first, you play it safe, but as you learn the fight, you start to test the limits. Think about the first time you try to greed a GCD, and it works! That would be pretty thrilling. But after you've figured out the timing so you know you can reliably greed the GCD, it's not very exciting any more. A new encounter is like a puzzle to solve. Everyone has their own little puzzles to solve within the larger puzzle. Solving the puzzle is more engaging than merely repeating the solution. But that applies to everyone, not only to healers.

I wouldn't consider the phenomenon unique to healers, but it hits them harder and faster. There's very little healing to do in most content in XIV. That's probably not going to change, considering the clear rates Squeenix wants for everyone. When you're not healing (as kits are currently designed), you're dealing damage. Alright, now's the time to figure out how to greed that uptime! Yippee, I got...another Broil.

The reward DPS classes get for playing well is squeezing ever cleverer uptime strategies and getting more out of their job's core function. How satisfying that is varies with the job's design, but there's satisfaction to be had there. The reward healers get for playing well is more time with their boring-as-snot, zero nuance damage rotations. Which from personal experience, isn't as thrilling for quite as long.

[BungleBear]

I wouldn't consider the phenomenon unique to healers, but it hits them harder and faster. There's very little healing to do in most content in XIV. That's probably not going to change, considering the clear rates Squeenix wants for everyone. When you're not healing (as kits are currently designed), you're dealing damage. Alright, now's the time to figure out how to greed that uptime! Yippee, I got...another Broil.

The reward DPS classes get for playing well is squeezing ever cleverer uptime strategies and getting more out of their job's core function. How satisfying that is varies with the job's design, but there's satisfaction to be had there. The reward healers get for playing well is more time with their boring-as-snot, zero nuance damage rotations. Which from personal experience, isn't as thrilling for quite as long.

Hey, I get excited when I hit that extra Broil! But your general point might be right. To be honest, I don't have enough experience playing non-healer jobs at a high level to judge this. I realise people find this hard to believe, but I actually have fun playing healer.

[IceBlueNinja]

Hey, I get excited when I hit that extra Broil! But your general point might be right. To be honest, I don't have enough experience playing non-healer jobs at a high level to judge this. I realise people find this hard to believe, but I actually have fun playing healer.

same though its really cause of ast atm despite its boring cards, i guess since ofc i do noct play over diurnal 100% when with a whm or another ast is more engaging. Funny think how I know I dont touch whm is when I switched to it on pc version to get the queen relic quest started it pops stating i just unlock lilly gage lol, seem i even at times use sch over whm but its only really when i do roll 50 60 70 or lvling and feel game gonna troll me anf gimmie arr content as ast which ugh i hate. only prefer sch over ast for arr. heaven ward and up strict ast. sad cant find no reason to ever wanna whm anymore.

[ty_taurus]

I don't think the activities you've listed are especially engaging for any role, not only for healers. But I think that's fine. Not all content needs to be super engaging. They call it "grinding" for a reason: it's just a mindless repetitive activity. I don't do treasure maps for engaging gameplay. I do them to have a laugh with friends. When I want content that requires a high level of focus and attention, I do savage or ultimate. But when I just want to relax and turn my brain off, I do an alliance raid or a jumping puzzle in the Gold Saucer, or whatever. I think it's good that the game provides this kind of variety.

It seems to me like you're looking for engaging gameplay in the wrong places. If you want to be challenged, don't grind fates, or do treasure maps, or farm fights that you've already cleared.

Hard disagree here. Yes, challenging content like learning new savage and extreme fights is engaging, but maintaining your optimal rotation during grindy content is far more entertaining than doing it as a healer. I switched to be a Dancer main in ShB and I have fallen in love with the job since. Sure it's very simple to play in comparison to some other DPS, and I would certainly appreciate a bit more depth getting added to the job, but I like how I'm always paying attention to my procs and I feel excitement every time I get through any given 30 seconds where I was able to avoid any amount of clipping and my Standard Step goes off cooldown exactly as that last GCD refreshes because I know that I did my job perfectly for those 30 seconds.

And let's take a look at MSQ progression, where virtually no healing needs to be done at all. Playing through the ShB story as Dancer felt exciting. I felt like I was in the story. I couldn't imagine having to have gone through some of those instance fights, like Ran'jit, or the level 56? instance in Lakeland (the one with all the sin eaters) as a healer. What would I even do in those?

To be honest, I can't wrap my head around the mentality that it's okay for the job to have nothing to do in casual content as long as there's challenging content that pressures you to use more. And even then, I would stress that the healers aren't very well designed in that regard right now either.

WHM suffers from dreadful clipping issues, and its selection of GCD healing is bloated with repetition despite the job not actually having a bloat issue.
Pet AI has a glaring, broken flaw that SCH usually can avoid (though that can also make it more easy to fall into that trap than SMNs who are more consciously aware of it), they're the worst barrier healer most of the time (forcing a Crit Adloquium is their only real selling point, but because that fights their DPS, it's only something you want in very specific circumstances). Succor and Adloquium are ignored in most content and not the main focal point of their healing in challenging content.
ASTs can struggle to get all of their seals for their opening Divination and Nocturnal's only value from a meta standpoint is when paired with another AST or WHM, but only when progging content. If you're playing through familiar content, then Diurnal is still better. (I'm sure a certain someone's gonna tell me how much of a meta slave I am for that)

There's a severe lack of understanding of how healers actually play from the developer standpoint which is just a consequence of the main designers just not playing healers ever and thus not having a strong enough understanding of what things actually do.