Normal Raids aren't exactly Raids, are they?

[ReiganCross]

Normal mode is going to feel unfulfilling, savage is the content that matters. Normal raids only exist because casuals were complaining all the time about not being able to access story content because it was too hard. People should be lucky that it exists in the first place.

There's barely any high end content in the game now, the game is catered to casuals. Can people stop complaining about one of the only pieces of content good players have left to do.

I think that saying "Savage is the content that matters" is going a wee bit too far. We definitely need stuff for people that enjoy breezing through story and feeling empowered by being this all-mighty badass Warrior of Light, I believe this content matters just as much as Raiding. "Casuals" are just as precious to me as hardcore raiders and I will gladly power my DPS up to carry them if I have to.

I'm currently still progging through E10S so I'm not sure about lacking of High-End Duty but you're right that there aren't many options. All that I can see is trying to Sync old content or maybe Delubrum Savage? I think Ultimate will only come once I clear E12S, right? So I don't even have that option (Not that I'd want to go through that without my Edenmorn gear anyways.) But yeah, we could use some Deep Dungeons or something tough aside from Savage Bosses. But end-game duty wasn't exactly the point I wanted to end up.

I'm saying that I really wish we could have consistency in Raid's architechture. A feeling that I'm raiding this gigantic place, which I believe Alexander and Coils got right. Hell, Coils even gave you a yalm count of how deep you were into it, and even then it wasn't exactly clear what the structure was, it was just a bunch of Allagan fragments of Dalamud. It certainly wasn't a bigass Black Temple on the end of a cliff, or an Icecrown Citadel sitting on the top of a mountain, or the depths of Molten Core, or... I don't know, maybe something after WotLK, never really played past that. Normal Raids aren't feeling like PLACES anymore, Karazhan felt like a tower, Ulduar felt like a complex, Eden feels like a shallow plot device.

[Karshan]

I think that saying "Savage is the content that matters" is going a wee bit too far. We definitely need stuff for people that enjoy breezing through story and feeling empowered by being this all-mighty badass Warrior of Light, I believe this content matters just as much as Raiding. "Casuals" are just as precious to me as hardcore raiders and I will gladly power my DPS up to carry them if I have to.

I'm currently still progging through E10S so I'm not sure about lacking of High-End Duty but you're right that there aren't many options. All that I can see is trying to Sync old content or maybe Delubrum Savage? I think Ultimate will only come once I clear E12S, right? So I don't even have that option (Not that I'd want to go through that without my Edenmorn gear anyways.) But yeah, we could use some Deep Dungeons or something tough aside from Savage Bosses. But end-game duty wasn't exactly the point I wanted to end up.

I'm saying that I really wish we could have consistency in Raid's architechture. A feeling that I'm raiding this gigantic place, which I believe Alexander and Coils got right. Hell, Coils even gave you a yalm count of how deep you were into it, and even then it wasn't exactly clear what the structure was, it was just a bunch of Allagan fragments of Dalamud. It certainly wasn't a bigass Black Temple on the end of a cliff, or an Icecrown Citadel sitting on the top of a mountain, or the depths of Molten Core, or... I don't know, maybe something after WotLK, never really played past that. Normal Raids aren't feeling like PLACES anymore, Karazhan felt like a tower, Ulduar felt like a complex, Eden feels like a shallow plot device.

UCoB is unlocked with O4S, UwU with O8S, and TEA with E4S. No need for E12S. And you'd rather go with adpated BiS than synced Edenmorn for Ultimate.

[RokkuEkkusu]

They removed the trash pulls because no one liked them.

At this point, we might as call the "Raids" as they truly are: "Trials".

[ReiganCross]

At this point, we might as call the "Raids" as they truly are: "Trials".

Yeah, that is entirely my point. The rewards are different, yeah, but I finish a Raid the exact same way I finish a Trial. The game play is the same, you just get into an arena and kill a boss... Hell, I think the Trials got more consistent with their arenas this time because it's not like you're conjuring the whole thing from the top of your head... Or fighting on top of Eden, yet again.

[Roda]

I too yearn for this game to once again marry its storytelling with its gameplay. Both are becoming shallow from their detachment from one another.
(On page one, someone made a joke about removing everything that wasn't attached to a quest or loot, but like, look at the shadowbringers maps. You can literally draw a line through all the setpieces that the MSQ takes you on. Every area is either a MSQ setpiece, a beast tribe setpiece, or a featureless plot of land with maybe a couple of identical mobs clumped around eachother. Il Mheg is where I first noticed this trend, but it honestly carries through even arr. The overworld has no mechanical functions for day to day experiences that do not revolve around gaining exp, gathering, vendering something, or queuing up for a hallway/room. It just feels like the level designers aren't really having fun with creating a world, and the script writers are doing ALL of the heavy lifting. :T)

I enjoyed the design of CLL where the groups had to split up to acomplish a goal, same with Dalriada. DRS's use of traps to open up a gate was also really interesting, and the minotaur fight was an interesting spin on the tired circular arena designs! Traps are cool, though I don't think they should be the bulk of environmental hazards. But those instances still use methods of corralling us that I don't find compelling. (Wall needing to be pierced with siege engine that needs to be defended: Good. Don't want to move forward because B team needs to defeat giant robot from advantageous position: Good. The immediate next room having a sparkly wall in front of stairs and hallways to block you just because: Wack, unimaginative, and bad. Stop that. Iterate the concept until you can give me a proper reason to not go forward. And no, barricades that SUDDENLY EXPLODE the instance the room is cleared is not good.)

As someone who is currently enjoying progging ultimates, I would love for their slot in the release cycle to be replaced with more exploratory, and experimental instances that promote wandering around, solving puzzles, and occasionally fighting a powerful foe. 'Cause Ultimates are just long savages really, which are just less forgiving trials now.

[SquigglesMajor]

They removed the trash pulls because no one liked them.

I did...

[ICountFrom0]

Normal raids used to be what, a single pull or two, a short bit of dungeon, and then a boss.

A bit of world building, and then an EVENT.

They used to even be long strange puzzles to solve like coils 3, no boss, all level.

They removed everything they could.... and ended up at a sidestory set of trials that isn't quite the same.

Can't say I like it, but what am I going to do, complain about missing trash mobs?

[RopeDrink]

Square favors simplifying duties for the sake of the Duty Finder. As in, any random Joe's within the item-level requirements can complete it when paired with variables in the same boat -- and nothing facilitates this better than having as little confusion as possible along a straighter path, leaving exploration up to the individuals in their own time rather than having people get lost or wander off when others just want to complete-and-yeet.

Take the Nier Raids as an example. There's not nearly as much trash or exploration compared to, say, the old Ivalice / Mach / Ark areas -- they saved the exploration side of it as part of the story-quests and/or the added kinda-not-really mini-game of finding information inside a trash-less instance so you can absorb the scenery at your leisure -- but as far as the actual raid itself, they opted instead for mini-bosses or funky transitions like that laser-tunnel in Puppet's Bunker (give or take a few trash pulls that are like scripted encounters rather than mechanicless trash). I'm sure that's a more interesting stop-gap (for some) compared to clearing variable packs of trash in between one boss room and another, a lot of which don't even have mechanics, never mind loot. And no, slapping a few mechanics on trash mobs doth not make the process all that more interesting for most people. It's basically the easiest way to make people work towards the next loot piniata.

The old ARR MSQ (Prae/Cast) was pretty expansive and had people doing mini-tasks inbetween packs of trash, yet not a lot of people who've done it before will want to do it again outside of a Roulette, and even then it'll cause groans. Most first timers will spend their time not knowing what the hell is going on while 80% of the raid are trying to get it over with as quickly as possible.

It's all fun and games initially, but as time goes on -- especially when content becomes outdated -- you're either there solely for the loot (such as Nier tokens for Cryptlurker, maybe even transmogs, possibly achievements, or first-time / one-time quest clears, etc), or you're doing old content at min-itemlevel to relive the good old days. Yes, the exploration, scope, and trash struggles have their charm and appeal, but those don't last long.

[Frizze]

Normal raids used to be what, a single pull or two, a short bit of dungeon, and then a boss.

A bit of world building, and then an EVENT.

They used to even be long strange puzzles to solve like coils 4, no boss, all level.

They removed everything they could.... and ended up at a sidestory set of trials that isn't quite the same.

Can't say I like it, but what am I going to do, complain about missing trash mobs?

Youre using the example of Turn 3*, and this is supposed to be one of the positive things that we've lost over the years? The entire instance is one long game of "Find the glowy arrow pointing the right way", with small groups of weak mobs peppered in, no boss to give a satisfying conclusion(the 2 mini-boss golems do not count), and no loot to earn. Doing it once to get a feel of the scope of the raid? Sure, im all for it. But i have never heard an old-school raider(you know, from when these were current) saying anything positive about this instance. At least use the example of Turn 10 rather then 3. This one had separate paths, multiple ways it could be approached, weaker and stronger trash mixed together, and a boss and a reward at the end. Or if your intent was to show they used to do different things rather then stick to the formula, why not Turn 2? A maze with a bunch of mini-bosses and killing them took away mechanics from the main boss while giving it buffs, you could take multiple paths, and your group was free to decide how many mini's(and which ones!) to defeat before attempting the actual boss - but all done on a time limit so you still had to fight well and decide fast.

*I know you typed "coils 4", but you clearly meant 3. Turn 4 is the elevator with waves and waves of mixed trash mobs, which ends with loot.

[ReiganCross]

Yes, the exploration, scope, and trash struggles have their charm and appeal, but those don't last long.

I think that is kind of missing the point of having exploration in the first place. I'm arguing for Immersion, for the fantasy of battling an actual place and against the artificiality, however practical, of just sprouting in front of a boss fight without any context on how we arrived there.

Where is the feeling of raiding a robot for his parts so I can make gear out of it? Hell, the Edenmorn stuff looks more like I'm raiding Gaia's wardrobe rather than whatever fever dream Eden is conjuring up. And I think like E10 has an actual location in the overworld or at least the story, but where does E9 takes place? Or E11? Eulmore certainly doesn't seem to be that large, and did we teleported there from the Empty?

It seems like a sense of location doesn't matter anymore. At least in Alexander I still had the feeling I was inside of the robot during the whole thing except maybe the final boss where things got funky. And then Omega started just conjuring whatever the hell would seem apropriate to his challenges and it all went to hell. Nowadays Trials are more of a location than Normal Raids, Titania has the castle, Innocence has the top of Mt.Gulg, Emerald has Castrum Marinum, Ruby got us back into the Ghymlit Dark...

I want to Raid PLACES again, not abstract constructs of a machine's algorythm or platforms of my imagination. Hell, I was already sad when Shinryu didn't take place on that Ala Mhigan garden where we meet Zenos, we just got some arbitrary platforms. And yes, I WOULD like to explore these actual solid places and kill my way through, thank you very much.