Normal Raids aren't exactly Raids, are they?

[catofsnake]

if the problem is that you wouldn't want to see this the 9th time when farming it or whatnot, just look to alexander savage. The alexander raids had neat run ups in the normal mode, then in the savage version had the zone-in point right before the boss, allowing you to get in another attempt straightaway. Also, take a look at T11. That run up is probably one of the coolest in the game; and I think a lot of flavor is lost without environmental setpieces like that or the city in alexander.

[ReiganCross]

I dunno, after 52 runs of CLL i can positively say that I wouldn't be bothered by running a bit before fighting the boss. Even better if they turn out to be from the same PLACE instead of even more map abstraction.

[MicahZerrshia]

The big problem with raids and trash mobs is they serve no purpose. In ffxi we had content filled with trash but they had the possibility of dropping something worthwhile, therefore they were worth the time and effort. If the trash mobs and simply just trash they serve no purpose in a raid, so why have them? Coming from XI when I first ran LotA and Coil and the mobs between bosses had no chance of dropping anything, they immediately annoyed me and they are still the worst part of the raids, even if they are quick they are a bother.

[ICountFrom0]

well, trash mobs can be named thematically to set the mood
they can have attacks that hint at the techniques you'll need for the boss at the end
but most importantly, the trashmobs are what differentiate a raid from a trial.
A trial is just the boss, a raid should be a bit more.

[Dewslam]

There could be a happy medium if they take some notes from the nier raid and how you could explore that in its own little isolated segments. Between the big boss duty fights - why not give the players little duty quests to go in and clear out the trash pulls in some cool thematic hallways and rooms where the cutscenes and lore happen making the whole thing seem a bit more active as opposed to the current Cutscene > duty find the raid > Cutscene flow they have going. I think Omega might have had something like that, but honestly I can't remember it's been way too long since I've done omega's quest line.

[Katie_Kitty]

I'm thinking Pandaemonium might be more raid-y.

[Iscah]

Where is the feeling of raiding a robot for his parts so I can make gear out of it? Hell, the Edenmorn stuff looks more like I'm raiding Gaia's wardrobe rather than whatever fever dream Eden is conjuring up.

I never got the impression that we were "raiding Alexander for its parts" to directly build the outfits. We raided the parts and exchanged them for clothes, but the clothes don't look like they were built from the parts.

Edenmorn mage year is indeed designed after Gaia's outfit and the tank coat seems to be themed on the Shadowkeeper wolf; I'm not sure if there's meant to be a direct reference in the melee's frilly bolero (but I really like the design anyway). It doesn't feel any different to theming the previous sets on Alexander or Omega.

Also, Eden was lacking in exploration altogether, but Omega had solo instances between each tier of fights. Probably a good way of handling it without requiring it to be repeated every time people do the fight.

[whiskeybravo]

I was seriously considering starting a thread about exactly this, lo and behold. Least I'm not alone.

Normal/Savage raids have basically become an extension of trials. They put so much into designing coil and alex zones but the last 2 expansions we've been stuck with what's basically an equivalent to the holodeck in Star Trek. Never mind half of the fights being previous trial bosses themselves.

I really hope they do something different with the new set of raids.

[ICountFrom0]

Good point. Trial means "main plot" and normal raid means "side plot". There's no optional trials anymore, and normal raids, are just optional trials.

[Iscah]

Good point. Trial means "main plot" and normal raid means "side plot". There's no optional trials anymore, and normal raids, are just optional trials.

Did you miss the Weapon quest line? It's still entirely optional.