Friction between casuals and raiders - One Lala's weird trick, GMs hate her!

[Sebazy]

*Halp! This suggestion was from over 4 years ago in a time when there was a much stronger anti healer DPS sentiment and a sizeable portion of the player base still wanted to single pull expert roulette dungeons. Neither of these angles are really a thing anymore and thus this suggestion is largely obsolete as the game stands today. I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't be worth implementing anymore, please keep that in mind*

It's 2am, the forum is in full swing and I really should be sleeping.

That makes it the perfect time for a lengthy and likely rather rough suggestion to go in the box!

I've got prior form with these ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...parser-problem ) and I hope this one can get some more positive discussion going to help alleviate a long standing thorn in the sides of a good portion of the FFXIV community.

Namely the frustration that can occur and sometimes spill over in roulette content. Whilst I personally have never really had a problem with it, a quick scan over some of the threads here show that it is an issue that some feel very strongly about. Enough so to warrant a silly Seb suggestion for it!

Compared to some of the long winded and complex suggestions I've offered up in the past, this one is really very simple but I suspect it would actually go a really long way.

Quite simply put, when SE add new dungeons, they will run through them extensively with various group setups as part of the testing and validation process. Data from these tentative runs can be taken and it'd be pretty straight forward to work out a typical DPS figure for each job right out of the gate in every new dungeon from this point forward.

SE could then take this figure, and apply it against a players initial clear.

*drumroll please*

This could then be saved in that characters data as a hidden expert roulette match making rank much akin to the MMR systems you see in games such as Overwatch.

I will stress right now that this suggestion revolves around this number being completely hidden from the player, you won't be able to see your own rank, nor will you be able to see anyone else's.

As you complete your expert roulette, your performance relative to the initial baseline will tweak your ranking up or down accordingly.

This ranking would then be used to try and skew who you get grouped with in your expert roulette. It wouldn't prevent two players with vastly different rankings from being grouped if that's all that's in the queue at that moment, but for example, in the case of a surplus of healers and DPS in the queue, it would group the highest ranks in one group (aka raiders who likely just want big pulls and a fast clear), and the lowest ranks in the other (who are more likely to want to take it easy and potentially lack the gear, confidence or experience for speed runs and big pulls).

In my eyes this is beautiful on multiple levels:

Those that simply want to speed run the dungeon as fast as they can will have a better chance of getting a group with like minded people, less frustration and salt, faster runs, good times.

Those that simply want to take it easy, plod though the dungeon and are either too timid, simply aren't bothered or just don't have a good enough grasp of the game yet will also get put with other people who are much more likely to go at a slower steadier pace and be content doing so.

This would also provide an incentive (Something this game desperately needs) for someone seeking quicker expert roulettes to actually work on their own personal standard of play, the better they do, the more likely they are to get stronger party members and thus a nice double dip on the likelihood of a quick clear.

Granted it’s nearly 3am and I’m half asleep here, but that strikes me as a three way win for all concerned?

To clarify, this idea only applies to expert roulette, it simply wouldn’t be fair to the player base overall to apply this to trials and 24man content.

In closing, the three big details to keep in mind with this idea:

The match making rank would have be hidden and completely invisible to all.

The match making rank would only be considered for expert roulette.

It would not make or break players being able to be thrown in with each other, rather it would just be an advisory to better sort and group a surplus of players (aka healers and dps) into more likeminded parties to minimise frustration and potential harassment.

And now we get to the part where I fall asleep, I'll be looking forward to reading feedback both positive and negative tomorrow <3

[Sebazy]

/10char, zzzzzzz

[jameseoakes]

Wouldn't this make the problem worse? With Newer ad less geared players would get paired with with the lower ranked players so we'd have most the players playing at a fairly low level together not being able to learn better practise from the more skilled and experienced players and the better players being in there own bubble

[Kaethra]

Wouldn't this make the problem worse? With Newer ad less geared players would get paired with with the lower ranked players so we'd have most the players playing at a fairly low level together not being able to learn better practise from the more skilled and experienced players and the better players being in there own bubble

Not necessarily.

When the first group took on Sastasha, they were ALL newbies. They eventually became the salty vet hardcore raiders the OP speaks of.

Newbies can learn from one another. I'd dare say (as the existence of veterans is testament to this) its the best way for them to learn. They can actually learn from real mistakes. Come up with plans, and overcome the challenges seeing with their own eyes what works and what doesn't.

Right now they can't, they queue up, see a dungeon vaporize before their eyes. And don't really learn much.

The OP's Idea is a bit more.. effort than mine. My idea for a similar issue is to segregate the playerbase based on content. Let vets do vet stuff and average do average stuff. Basically take a page from WoW's current handbook and have the normal content as is. Then challenge mode versions that cannot be accessed through the normal DF. Same dungeon but HP and Damage are scaled up. Rewards are slightly better.

The average player will stick to the duty finder and do the roulette as normal. The veteran will naturally want a challenge (and the slightly better reward for it), and grab some buddies and tackle the hard stuff.

People will still complain because they'll see a player getting +5 item level gear higher than theirs in content they can't simply press a button to form the group for them. But you can't make everyone happy. With that said.. the forums DO exaggerate the issues put forth in the OP. They're not quite as bad as all that. So no change at the end of the day maybe needed.

[NessaWyvern]

Not necessarily.

When the first group took on Sastasha, they were ALL newbies. They eventually became the salty vet hardcore raiders the OP speaks of.

Newbies can learn from one another. I'd dare say (as the existence of veterans is testament to this) its the best way for them to learn. They can actually learn from real mistakes. Come up with plans, and overcome the challenges seeing with their own eyes what works and what doesn't.

Aye, I was here when ARR came out, and it was really fun, even with all the wipes.
Also, I am in the mindset that players need to learn how to play their class, and know the game with all it's aoes. Some people get carried and they don't end up learning what they should by the time they are doing end-game content. I think what OP is suggesting would help with it.

[KaldeaSahaline]

If we as a community practice patience and understanding. This wouldn't need to be an issue needing a solution.

This sentence screams bias against "raiders". If I'm a lower skilled player, who am I being patient or understanding with? Other lower skilled players? Ok fair enough - but this sentence does absolutely nothing to solve friction between player segments.

Here's my POV: When I queue up for content I don't expect people to play at my level, I do however expect every single player to try their best. Anything less than trying your best (in a team environment) is disrespectful to others.

You're asking me to "patient" & "understanding" with lower skilled players and I already am. In fact, most of us raiders really are. The problem is that a large portion of the people we get grouped with (if we don't filter you) have no respect for our time or effort.

There's a reason why in EVERY other format this behavior is very negatively viewed. At Work, in school/uni, sports, etc.

Sidebar - nearly ALL of my best experiences in this game are results of learning parties. It's where we all had the same goal, same general skill level/knowledge, and worked together to get it. It's organic and rewarding. It's this reason - why I support the segregation of playerbases (much like @Sebazy's) suggestion is trying to accomplish. I don't agree with the implementation referenced, but I fully support the concept.

Lets say you're in the mood to relax. You queue up now and the group wants to just blow though. Well.. that sort of ruined the mood a bit.

Why are you queueing up for battle content if you want to relax? I'll never understand this methodology.

[PyurBlue]

This sentence screams bias against "raiders". If I'm a lower skilled player, who am I being patient or understanding with? Other lower skilled players? Ok fair enough - but this sentence does absolutely nothing to solve friction between player segments.

Here's my POV: When I queue up for content I don't expect people to play at my level, I do however expect every single player to try their best. Anything less than trying your best (in a team environment) is disrespectful to others.

You're asking me to "patient" & "understanding" with lower skilled players and I already am. In fact, most of us raiders really are. The problem is that a large portion of the people we get grouped with (if we don't filter you) have no respect for our time or effort.

There's a reason why in EVERY other format this behavior is very negatively viewed. At Work, in school/uni, sports, etc.

I don't think it's biased. 100% serious play isn't any more correct than a casual run through a dungeon. Ideally if you have a specific goal you should try to communicate with your group when all of you spawn in. As long as no one is actively trying to sabotage the run, no one is really doing anything wrong. This applies outside of the game too. In work or school, people not giving their best can be a hindrance, but in a recreation like sports? That's a really wide category which can range from being as serious as a job to completely laid back. Duty Finder is akin to going to the park and trying to setup a game with random people. It's not going to be the World Cup. You can't necessarily expect everyone to be on the same page.

Why are you queueing up for battle content if you want to relax? I'll never understand this methodology.

You could say that the whole point of a video game is to relax.

Anyway, as far as the idea presented in this thread goes, I'd opt out. I don't really care about running through content as fast as possible and it's fun to be helpful where you can. I'm fine with the current matchmaking.

[Nixxe]

I doubt this would be practical to implement. Code isn't exactly great at evaluating context, so all such a system will do is encourage players to play to the system rather than doing what makes sense for that particular moment of that particular run. For instance, if you base it just off of DPS, people are probably going to soak more avoidable damage and be less willing to do mechanics. Even if the end result is they wipe, which would make one assume that they'd be sufficiently motivated to keep doing those things, I think for the sort of player who really cares about this type of thing in the first place, they're likely to just blame it on other people. At that point you're just making the run worse for everyone. Furthermore, I think it's generally good to let players of different skills mix, as it can organically put players in situations where they can learn better ways of doing things or new ways of approaching issues. I think the real issue here is that people need to accept that roulettes are random groups, and if they can't tolerate that, there's always the PF. Trying to change DF so that it gives people all the control of PF with none of the responsibility will probably just make things worse.

[Sebazy]

My feeling is that expert isn't really the place where people will learn good play from anyone other than themselves. After the first few runs these dungeons devolve into pretty mindless face rolls regardless of play style.

[Lozza]

I don't disagree with this idea, I only wonder how effective it could actually be. A lot of skill in games like FFXIV comes from practice and as a result players who never have to deal with big pulls will never get the practice needed to advance into a more skilled category. At the same time the first time they are put there they are likely to have problems which may dump them down into the lower group meaning they won't get the practice they need and the cycle continues. While I agree that expert roulette is not the place to "train" new players there needs to be some leeway for the fact that practice is often the difference between "good" and "bad". This also means that the first time players do these dungeons they are likely to be placed with other new players or with designated "bad" players making it hard for them to clear the content - leading to frustration.

Frankly I think a self designated "speed clear" switch in the duty finder complete with a high ilvl requirement (because let's face it gear does make things smoother) would be more useful and less likely to lead to players getting stuck with a ratings band they can't get out of. Anyone using the speed clear switch that sucks, just vote kick.