Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Wavaryen]

At the expense of those they leech off, of count at only an nth the value of their own interests, all because they can't be bothered to learn even the basics, you mean? That's literally the sole group under the scope here.

It is not leeching because the content is so easy, that if we get a full group of people playing like them. They will still get content done.


That is why the content is so good and why they are having fun. How is it leeching if they don't need you?

[Krotoan]

Having the occasional hurdle by which to prompt or reinforce learning, and generally centralize at least a modicum of competency as an expected norm, does not amount to "enforcing how to play the game".

Except it really does. You are making people play the game a certain way as opposed to now in which people can engage at will (even if that will is "I just wanna get past this") the main content of the game. Every choice the developers make seems to reinforce the vision of accessibility for all instead of restriction to "competency". Easy modes for required story instances, mechanics that allow one or more deaths and recovery in required content, gear progression that supplements skill with sheer numbers if the player "outlevels" where they are along with abundant XP to do so.

And again this "modicum of competency" is present in likely 99% of the playerbase. So rather than say it's the same as making this accessible for people who cannot see colors or hear sound queues , I'd say it's not even a 100th as important for the game to be enjoyable to a majority. One creates inclusivity, the other gatekeeps for "skill".

In any other game, even other MMOs, it'd be called "a well-crafted difficulty curve" -- precisely the way any game provides ramps and bridges to being able to enjoy said game more deeply or in novel ways. Only here do we seem so eager to mislabel such as oppressive or forceful.

So you want to compare the current most popular MMO out there to other less successful MMO's and say we should change the way the game is because they're working so much better? Reducing the player pool respectively. Make the people who currently play and just get by learn or leave (and they're gonna leave, cause it's a game and they seem to be comfortable with minimal effort).

One of the things that constantly drives me away from games in general is loss of progress or restriction of progress at "death". It's a really outdated "punishment" system from back when a game had to have setbacks and skill gates or it wouldn't last or sell well cause if you just beat it the first time you picked it up most people would never play it again and the developers couldn't add stuff on to it to keep people playing because you had already bought it and taken it home. It's crazy how ingrained the expectation is for that punishment to be there though, like we seem to all think it's part of what fun is.. when it's not for a great many people.

People play games to have fun and the idea that they should be punished for being bad at games is pretty silly when you think about that.

We have content that's challenging and you can engage that at will as well but you don't HAVE to to engage in the main thing FFXIV advertises which is it's story. I'm all for the "challenge me!" crowd to get their piece of the pie, but lets not make the cake eaters eat that pie as well, especially when , as I've discussed, they are such a minor problem.

[Wavaryen]

Like I said before, do you all really care that people get better. Or are you wanting players to get "better" to your standards because you want DF groups to do the content faster?

[SomeRandomHuman]

Like I said before, do you all really care that people get better. Or are you wanting players to get "better" to your standards because you want DF groups to do the content faster?

My standard is to just pull your weight. If you're a SAM spamming Yukikaze combo and only using higanbana that's not pulling your weight.

I'm sorry for expecting people to have any semblance of finesse so stuff can be done in a timely manner.

[Wavaryen]

My standard is to just pull your weight. If you're a SAM spamming Yukikaze combo and only using higanbana that's not pulling your weight.

I'm sorry for expecting people to have any semblance of finesse so stuff can be done in a timely manner.

As long as the content gets done. They feel they are pulling weight. That is what DF is for. People like them. So why get it changed?

[Shurrikhan]

So you want to compare the current most popular MMO out there to other less successful MMO's and say we should change the way the game is because they're working so much better?

Interesting strawman, but I'll admit to the low-hanging fruit there.

In what you've quoted, I have not compared XIV to other MMOs, or even other games generally. I compared how we treat the concept of a difficulty curve and in-game situated learning. Anywhere else, its the basis for a good game. Here, it's as often treated as satanic.

"The endgame experience have more going on than midgame" or "cumulative learning" or "gradually increasing complexity/difficulty" are not new or controversial concepts.

Nor is it is new or controversial to want not to create systems of incentives that will split your playerbase in an increasingly irredeemable fashion, let alone towards some sort of poorly understood quasi-class warfare -- "casuals" vs. "hardcore" who nonetheless overlap, individual to individual, across every criteria] -- as we have here.

Consider: How much of the game is actually presented attractively to a given player, be they the mythical Conny Casual, Eddie Elite, or anyone in between? What does the game do to draw in someone who might not be inherently interested in the combat aspects (which are still some 90% of the game's content, no matter how you cut it)? What does it do to actually let highly anxious people step over the hurdle to enter Extreme trials or Savage, if they want that level of depth, but want to be and feel prepared (besides yet again telling the community to make up the difference on their own)?

Initially, there's little. HoN is a boon, but a small one, because it's neither directly situated nor does it do much to actually draw players' interests. You go if you have that interest. And if you've no such interest despite that its information would have been useful to you, the game, by readies the rut for you. Follow it to have access only to an increasingly narrow span of the game's combat content, replacing such with further social conflict.

For the later gaps, though, there's nothing. You can see all the mechanics symbols likely to be repurposed, but unless the concepts and habits necessary for that later content is centered upon and drawn attention to, however unintrusively, it will click for some --for whom Savage will be presented about as attractively as its sum of actual mechanics, novelty, etc., can be to that individual-- and not for others -- for whom that content will not be given a remotely attractive view.

So, yes, it does have much to do with inclusivity, in the same way that good pedagogical or instructional practices anywhere, even if not necessary for anyone and everyone, still benefit the given community, especially if it's often grouped as one.

[Rinhi]

The dungeon or instance gets done a little slower but it's at most a 20-30 minute thing. It's not great but it's also not the brain destroying ordeal others make it out to be.

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long

I mean, one could also interpret it as:

The people trying to improve the playerbase: whining that certain players are playing the game as the devs designed/intended.

The contrarians: playing the game as it was designed and/or intended.

It's not some black and white "all casuals are lazy terrible players". The vast majority of casuals are competent at their rotations, although maybe not so much the perfect timing and/or weaving of skills/cool downs.

There absolutely are lazy idiots and/or trolls out there, but the vast majority of casual players are those playing at maybe 75% efficiency; probably can't clear current-tier EX without a carry, but also probably don't care to do it in the first place.

then again, the devs have also intended for players to do savage and extreme content and a big part of the JP playerbase does just that, while the EU and NA servers only have a fraction of those numbers or even attempts

Like I said before, do you all really care that people get better. Or are you wanting players to get "better" to your standards because you want DF groups to do the content faster?

do you have a big enough wall for that projection? "you only want people to be faster for your own gain"
no, I simply want people to play better/improve and I'll continue to do that in every game or activity I do
a healer standing around for 90% of the dungeon or trial doing nothing is not playing the game, they might as well be afk, a tank single pulling might as well not be a tank because a dps does the single pull job better than any tank could
what exactly is wrong with wanting people to improve? what exactly is the issue with people wanting to help others?
but nah, gotta defend the kind of players that cause people to leave or vote abandon, those are the REAL players who the devs made the game for, yeah!

[Wavaryen]

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long



then again, the devs have also intended for players to do savage and extreme content and a big part of the JP playerbase does just that, while the EU and NA servers only have a fraction of those numbers or even attempts



do you have a big enough wall for that projection? "you only want people to be faster for your own gain"
no, I simply want people to play better/improve and I'll continue to do that in every game or activity I do
a healer standing around for 90% of the dungeon or trial doing nothing is not playing the game, they might as well be afk, a tank single pulling might as well not be a tank because a dps does the single pull job better than any tank could
what exactly is wrong with wanting people to improve? what exactly is the issue with people wanting to help others?
but nah, gotta defend the kind of players that cause people to leave or vote abandon, those are the REAL players who the devs made the game for, yeah!

Plenty wrong with it. Why does it matter if they improve? What are you getting out of it? They are having fun, they enjoy the game, and the content gets done. It is designed for them. So you telling me that you want people to improve out of the kindness of your heart? If you are so kind, than why can't you just accept that people might play bad at the class but still having fun.




Your last comment says it all. Players who causes others to leave. You are trying to improve the quality of DF, Lets not pretend like you stand on a higher moral ground by thinking what is best for anyone. Leaving a bad group is not that big of a deal. You will get another one, and the person who is having fun and might not be doing so well. Will find someone else that does not mind it. As long as the content gets done.


Like I said. The content is designed for players like them. They don't need to improve and this might be a shocker...but many people still have fun being bad at the game. And rather play in a way they enjoy. Because at the end of the day, it is still a game. They are doing content they belong in. So your help is not needed and wanted for some of them. It kinda comes off as self center a little to even say I just want players to be better in a game for no personal reasons at all. All because some people are not happy that the content takes longer to do! . Hmmmm

[ZedxKayn]

It kinda comes off as self center...

The total and utter irony in this statement.

You're basically saying how someone play doesn't matter, as long as they have fun, and that it's designed for them. But no, until the MSQ won't be required to do harder content, it is not designed for them, it is designed for everyone, simply because they would never clear without anyone to carry them.

And what about the fun of the people they get matched with? Why ruin the fun of 3 other players by quite literally taking advantage of their efforts. Why do the underperformer's fun matters but not the rest of the party's?

Casual content is balanced around enabling leeches to get by, unfortunately, but by no means is it designed for them.

[Wavaryen]

The total and utter irony in this statement.

You're basically saying how someone play doesn't matter, as long as they have fun, and that it's designed for them. But no, until the MSQ won't be required to do harder content, it is not designed for them, it is designed for everyone, simply because they would never clear without anyone to carry them.

And what about the fun of the people they get matched with? Why ruin the fun of 3 other players by quite literally taking advantage of their efforts. Why do the underperformer's fun matters but not the rest of the party's?

Casual content is balanced around enabling leeches to get by, unfortunately, but by no means is it designed for them.

That is false. It is not design for people who know your class, and how to play. Because the content is way too easy for that. If it was design for us. It would test us some. It does not. So that is like saying. Ok this fisher price toy is pretty cool, and fun. Ya, but it was made for a kid.



A group full of leeches can get through the content. They don't need us to do said content. So who are they leeching off of? and if your fun gets ruined so easily by having a bad group. That is really a you problem. They should not care about your issues. You lose nothing but time leaving and finding a new group. The content is easy enough that a group of bad players can get through it. So they are not really leeching with that logic.