Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Shurrikhan]

You go back like five years ago to find dirt on people.

Your hubby literally landed himself on a #gcbtw subreddit. Hell, I still remember seeing that post, even if I'd long since forgotten his name. Connecting name to memory made for quite a double-take, though, I'll admit.

I almost spit out my tea laughing at how far people will sink.

But yes, let's call remembering an infamous event (one which points a certain stark hypocrisy in the poster's words) a indicator of "how far people will sink" and not, for instance, the filth he was spewing.

It also got point out, the only reason why you all want this is to increase your odds of getting better DF groups.

Which, while hardly a problem or poor motive in itself, is false.

Again, I get your position here. I can't understand your insistence that your right to play how you like trumps your group's right to play how they like, of course, but I get the fear of being gated or otherwise excluded. That sucks, and if any such changes as are proposed here were to ultimately result in increased exclusion, they should be considered a failure. I would even argue that outside of certain extreme examples, that would be true even if the sum-total of enjoyment experienced by the game's players were greater than if that exclusion weren't added. Imo, these things shouldn't be quite just a matter of the greatest good or of utilitarian reasoning, as it's a little too easy to forget the losses faced by those the changes have trimmed and confuse the happy remaindcer with the whole.

...But if you actually looked through those suggestions in good faith, or bothered to argue parameters rather than (A) insisting on rights that come at the expense of everyone else's (and to greater total loss) or (B) negligently demonizing the motives behind those suggestions, I doubt the back-and-forths you've seen here would have gone quite as such.

The people saying, you don't want people to be elite. Ok, most of us don't care if some of you want tools that help people play better if they want to do it. Go for it!

I have yet to see anyone here say they want people to continue to lack the skills required to do all content well (i.e., to be "elite"), but I agree with the latter sentiment. I just wish the tools were made more convenient for the average player and weren't so often demonized (typically alongside anyone who'd find self-improvement entertaining in itself, sadly).

[Jadedsins]

You hubby literally landed himself on a #gcbtw subreddit. Hell, I still remember seeing that post, even if I'd long since forgotten his name. Connecting name to memory made for quite a double-take, though, I'll admit.


But yes, let's call remembering an infamous event (one which points a certain stark hypocrisy in the poster's words) a indicator of "how far people will sink" and not, for instance, the filth he was spewing.


Which, while hardly a problem or poor motive in itself, is false.

Ya it was a pretty bad event. We had the GMs tell us sorry, and ban some people from the forum/and the stalker. It also was proof about how much of a nut job this community has, and it is coming to light more and more with these streamers sadly. Also, my husband was really cute defending me like that. Q_Q he does not get work up like that anymore. Darn old age.



After people got dealt with, we saw the reddit and laughed. It was a good case to show how bad the community really gets. and glad some people still remember it. We should all learn from it. I just find it funny the biggest troll in this thread, dug it up.

[Shurrikhan]

Ya it was a pretty bad event. We had the GMs tell us sorry, and ban some people from the forum/and the stalker. It also was proof about how much of a nut job this community has, and it is coming to light more and more with these streamers sadly. Also, my husband was really cute defending me like that.

...You know what, I'm not even surprised you've turned the narrative on this one, but let's be clear: his post was the #gcbtw example.

I don't doubt that they gave harsh words, too; however tactless and seemingly ill-thought an angry post will be it usually has some trigger for that ugliness. But, there's a reason that "cute" post of his -- complete with its sexist slurs, intimidation, and diatribe -- stood out in memory far more than theirs, which were almost entirely civil by comparison even when accounting for implications.

and glad some people still remember it. We should all learn from it. I just find it funny the biggest troll in this thread, dug it up.

If he was able to post that and come out unscathed, then the only lesson to learn from the event would be a somewhat dystopian one. Nor does giving information that might provide an answer to the itching question of "Is this guy at all arguing in good faith, or have our past 30 pages been wasted?" make one a troll.

But, regardless, please do enjoy your experience. I'm sure you're a nice enough individual most of the time, which is about all that can be said of anyone.

If I've come off as being offended by you personally, I apologize; I merely dislike unfairness, and the rules of play you've described -- by which your individual "rights" trump those of your group despite their both equally being individuals and more numerous -- have struck me as painfully unfair. I would hate to see the game ever aim to cater to that sort of unfairness, just as I'd dislike for it to reduce the span of players capable of enjoying the game, at least from among those who historically have enjoyed it.

[SomeRandomHuman]

All I see here is 71 pages of accomplished players yelling at other on how they would make casuals into elite players.

You mean the 2 or 3 pages you actually read and then assumed?

If you had any semblance of understanding about this thread you'd know what the hot topic is.

Since when is asking someone to use more than 2-3 skills in level 70+ content turning casuals into elitists? Since when is asking someone to know their basic rotation in level 70+ content turning casuals into elitists? It's not.

Go back and read the whole thread before you try to come in here and throw your self-appointed weight around.

[Jojoya]

Well just don't do stressful or hard content if you want to relax? But I guess we now need to cater towards "tired" people when we make games. Right.

When did this turn into a discussion about stressful/hard content? The OP was addressing all content that wasn't being done solo.

You're the one who believes THINK is so important. Try engaging it. Game companies are profit driven in the end. That means they need to think about all the potential customers they are trying to attract, including people who are tired after a long day of work. They absolutely need to cater part of their game to those people.

Part does not mean all, though. I've already stated if you run into someone joining a Savage/EX/Ultimate group that does not meet reasonable expectations for performance in that content, by all means remove them from the group.

But those same standards cannot be expected of players doing normal content. That content is intended for everyone.

The experience with duty finder in NA is just a mess, honestly I have gotten a decent amount of nice people, but it truly is a dice roll. For every super fun run with sprouts with no expectations there is another with some weirdo freaking out on people. Then there is the person I had in Qarn who just skipped all of the loot when the sprout was there for the first time. I think leveling a dps is cursed. I just wished to level dps so I knew what to expect when going into content. I wished to know what the ground aoes dps put down so I do not mistaken it for an enemies. What other classes may be viewing from their portion of the battle field. What mechanics they have within their class such as ninja's needed to refresh their pinwheel and not to chain pull because you can not become hidden during combat like in other games I have played that had separate skills for being able to hide in combat. Maybe NA data centers themselves are cursed. I just wish to relax, and not get into something every other time with someone with a bad attitude. I honestly thought it was a meme about people blaming healers too, a tank actually blamed the healer for their death in sleepy snowcloak.

Or it's more a problem with a specific data center. It's extremely rare I run into issues in Duty Finder. I'm even leveling a new character right now and the number of players being welcoming and helpful to all the sprouts has been great to see.

I'm not going to say the bad experiences never happen on Crystal but they're so uncommon from my experience I never walk into an instance fearing the group will have a nightmare player.

[SomeRandomHuman]

But those same standards cannot be expected of players doing normal content. That content is intended for everyone.

So expecting someone in the Qitana Ravel to know what their basic combo chains are and perform them is too high of a standard?

[Shurrikhan]

When did this turn into a discussion about stressful/hard content? The OP was addressing all content that wasn't being done solo.

You're the one who believes THINK(ing?) is so important. Try engaging it(your ability to think?). Game companies are profit driven in the end. That means they need to think about all the potential customers they are trying to attract, including people who are tired after a long day of work. They absolutely need to cater part of their game to those people.

:: Parentheticals my own, to ensure I'm understanding your retorts to Diva here. Emphasis (underline) also my own.

There are plenty of games that already profit plentifully by attracting players who are too tired to think. Find them on Steam. Find them on Google Play. There's a veritable trove of them.

So why do we need to increasingly turn XIV into Candy Crush? The relaxing parts are already there, and most investment in system design (Trusts, for instance) have increasingly catered to (made further allotments for) that span of players.

Again, when the game was released, dungeons as a content type included instances which could appeal to those looking for more than just a relaxing experience (i.e., those who actually wanted to engage with the systems of the game at a level that'd give those systems pertinence). Because the game has done so little to increase its efforts to facilitate learning even as the number of pieces of content have increased twofold, threefold, fourfold, content types have, in effect, begun to exclude player interests they used to include. "You want cognitive engagement? Go fight in a boss arena. You want depth in a job kit? Sorry, but you'll have to find something other than MCH now, no matter how that aesthetic may be your favorite. We don't serve your kind here anymore."

The kind of exclusion you're fearing is what's been subtly happening over the last 7 years, with some points of change far more noticeable than others, to those you'd accuse of encroaching on your preferred style of content design.

[Jadedsins]

...You know what, I'm not even surprised you've turned the narrative on this one. His post was the #gcbtw example.

I don't doubt that they gave harsh words, too; however tactless and seemingly ill-thought an angry post will be it usually has some trigger for that ugliness. But, there's a reason that "cute" post of his -- complete with its sexist slurs, intimidation, and diatribe -- stood out in memory far more than theirs, which were almost entirely civil by comparison even when accounting for implications.


If he was able to post that and come out unscathed, then the only lesson to learn from the event would be a somewhat dystopian one. Nor does giving information that might provide an answer to the itching question of "Is this guy at all arguing in good faith, or have our past 30 pages been wasted?" make one a troll.

But, regardless, please do enjoy your experience. I'm sure you're a nice enough individual most of the time, which is about all that can be said of anyone.

If I've come off as being offended by you personally, I apologize; I merely dislike unfairness, and the rules of play you've described -- by which your individual "rights" trump those of your group despite their both equally being individuals and more numerous -- have struck me as painfully unfair. I would hate to see the game ever aim to placate that sort of unfairness, just as I'd dislike for it to reduce the span of players capable of enjoying the game, at least from among those who historically have enjoyed it.

The person he attacked pretty much called me a S word, and people in that thread when i said I've had a bad time with the community. At the time I did. I was flamed, and I counter back like I do now. During that time in heavenward the CS support was not as good as it is now.

It was very sweet of him and I don't really care it was consider "sexist" when the woman at the time was flaming derailing and acting like I deserve the linkshell stalking me. and my husband is still around is proof that the GMS took his side on it, even though they told him he was in the wrong for getting that upset. They saw the logs, and saw what I was going through and understood why he was upset. That is the only reason we stayed with this game. His post was showing an example of the CS don't do anything to people who harass others. I mean it was a little over the top, the know your place made me roll eyes. But his heart was in the right place. and from what he was told. It help trigger some changes with reports. So more power to him.


I don't take anything people say personal. I just speak my mind, and understand people don't agree with my stance. And I don't hold it against anyone. So don't worry I have no hard feelings, and husband does not as well. We like to debate, and don't mind if people don't agree.

[Jojoya]

Parentheticals my own, to ensure I'm understanding your retorts to Diva here. Emphasis (underline) also my own.

There are plenty of games that already profit plentifully by attracting players who are too tired to think. Find them on Steam. Find them on Google Play. There's a veritable trove of them.

So why do we need to increasingly turn XIV into Candy Crush? The relaxing parts are already there, and most investment in system design (Trusts, for instance) have increasingly catered to (made further allotments for) that span of players.

My discussion with Diva began after a reply i made to another poster talking about a comment Ion Hazzikostas made about his intent for WoW game design and how THINK was important to it. That's why I keep using that specific term.

Who's trying to turn FFXIV into Candy Crush? I don't see anyone trying to do that.

I'll repeat the same thing I said at the start of the thread and again later.

You cannot teach people who are not interested in learning. You cannot get people to improve who have no interest in improving.

Human beings just don't work that way. The desire to learn and improve must come from within. Try to force it on them and you start generating resentment and hostility.

That's why games, especially those trying to reach large audiences, almost always come with some form of difficulty levels to all or part of content. You've got the base level that should be possible for anyone to complete. You've got the moderate difficulty levels for those who want a bit more of a challenge. You've got the highest difficulty levels for those who want to THINK, as that one poster put it.

There is nothing that SE can do that will get the player who's happy at the base level to up their game play to the moderate level. It's the player who has to decide they want to make that change.

Again, when the game was released, dungeons as a content type included instances which could appeal to those looking for more than just a relaxing experience (i.e., those who actually wanted to engage with the systems of the game at a level that'd give those systems pertinence). Because the game has done so little to increase its efforts to facilitate learning even as the number of pieces of content have increased twofold, threefold, fourfold, content types have, in effect, begun to exclude player interests they used to include. "You want cognitive engagement? Go fight in a boss arena. You want depth in a job kit? Sorry, but you'll have to find something other than MCH now, no matter how that aesthetic may be your favorite. We don't serve your kind here anymore."

The kind of exclusion you're fearing is what's been subtly happening over the last 7 years, with some points of change far more noticeable than others, to those you'd accuse of encroaching on your preferred style of content design.

It sounds more like you're concern is one of content design than of player behavior. That's a different topic.

As for job kits having depth, there's a point where more buttons stops adding depth and starts creating bloat. It's a real problem in MMORPGs where character levels keep increasing and developers have to work to keep the bloat under control. That's another topic that deserves a separate thread.

Yet you can first get people interested in learning. See the differences between when education does and does not work.

SE is a game development and publishing company. They are not educators. It's not their responsibility to get people interested in learning.

I was literally replying to your own comment.
Even if Game companies are profit driven, doesn't mean that they have to cater towards everyone. Just the majority. If you want something specific, there're plenty of games that are made for "tired" people where you don't need to think.
FFXIV is an MMO. A game, where you WILL encounter other players and you WILL engage in activities with them. It's up to YOU to do your best (no, it's doesn't mean you need to perform like everything is at Ultimate level play, I'm so tired of repeating this, I don't understand why you people are so dense) to provide your support for your team, which includes doing your job as DPS/Tank/Healer. This doesn't mean that you have to be top parser score in anything you do. This means that you have to respect others' time the same way they respect yours. Therefore not being lazy.
This thread was started with an idea to add more tools to teach people literal basics. You will be surprised how many players out there want to learn the game, their class and not just mush random pretty buttons. Especially new players.
For some reason, part of this community thinks that you are allowed to be a burden for your team. If you're not interested in learning, it's fine, no one is forcing you. But you also need to avoid forcing others to work twice as hard because they didn't pay their sub to carry you through content. (And I don't mean You Jojoya, specifically, just in case)

And my comment had been in response to that other poster. You're removing context when you take that out of the discussion.

You're right. It's up to the individual player whether or not they are going to do their best. You cannot force them to do their best. I cannot force them to do their best. SE cannot force them to do their best. Only they can make that choice.

The problem you're ignoring is that you lack information that will let you know what that other player's best is. Are they disabled in some way? You have no way of knowing that. Are they running the game on a potato PC barely meeting system requirements from a low speed internet hotspot? You have no way of knowing that.

They may very well be trying their best even if it doesn't look that way to you.

What you can do is decide whether or not you want to be in a party with another player who doesn't meet your personal standards. You can try to get the rest of the party to agree to remove the player, or you can leave on your own. I've left parties when there was literally a player who was not trying. I'm talking not even doing a single or 2 button mash, I mean just following the party at a distance usually making stupid comments. The rest of the party wanted to carry that person and wouldn't agree to a kick so I left.

But those situations are so extremely rare. Most of the time, everyone in the group is contributing to a reasonable degree. Maybe a dungeon will take 25 minutes instead of 15 minutes? Doesn't bother me as long as everyone's got a good attitude about things.

Why are we trying to get SE to divert development resources that could be used for improving job depth, creating new dungeons, etc. just to try to force a tiny percentage of problem players to change that have no interest in changing?

[Shurrikhan]

You cannot teach people who are not interested in learning. You cannot get people to improve who have no interest in improving.

Yet you can first cause people to be interested in learning.

See, for example, the differences between when education does and does not work.

Human beings just don't work that way. The desire to learn and improve must come from within.

Is it inborn? Are some just inherently and permanently incapable of that desire, and therefore of learning or improvement? If not, see above.

Try to force it on them and you start generating resentment and hostility.

That's quite a false ultimatum.

That's why games, especially those trying to reach large audiences, almost always come with some form of difficulty levels to all or part of content.

Yes. Would you agree that it is better to give access to a greater span of difficulty levels?

Let's put it this way:

• Content Type A (Battlecraft Leves, let's say) includes elements 1-2.
• Content Type B (Trust dungeons) includes elements 1-4.
• Content Type C (Squadrons, perhaps) includes elements 1-5.
• Content Type D (Guildhests) includes elements 1-3 and 6-7.
• Content Type E (a DF dungeon with no melee, no need for Rescue- or Bard-taxi-ing, and all players mostly follow the same actions as trust NPCs) includes elements 1-8.
• Content Type F (a DF dungeon with no melee and more normal players) includes elements 1-10.
• Content Type G (a DF dungeon, normal, with melee so positioning double matters) includes elements 1-11.
• Content Type H (Bozja/Eureka) includes elements 1-3, 5, and 12.
• Content Type I (PotD/HoH) includes elements 1-3, 5, and 12-13.

And so forth. There's just different amounts of "stuff" to actually interact with in any of those given modes.

The complaint is less that Content Type F, for instance, is too easy so much as just that it its designs are increasingly constrained, wasting much of its potential.

In part that comes from stagnating expectations, such as that everything in content type F must be interchangeably [<trash pack x4, boss> (Repeat x3)].

In other cases it comes from parts of the experience being outright trimmed just because the game couldn't be bothered to teach how it might be used (example: CC, if you haven't joined the game too late to know what that was) -- and thus Content Type G, for instance, is increasingly trimmed until it has only a total of 7 elements' worth of "stuff" available to interact with. That latter point is the main issue:

• Why have CC when people can't be bothered to learn how to use it? (Don't worry; it's basically gone now.)
  
  
• Why have decently interest DPS rotations available to healers if they might overwhelm the bottom 10%? (Don't worry; they're gone now.)
  
  
• Why experiment with remotely deep mechanics like Heat Gauge if the lowest-common-denominator won't understand how to utilize them? If things start getting complex, it's not like we can be bothered to write clear tooltips, let alone explain our own mechanics. (Don't worry; they're gone now.)
  
  
• Why have synergetic oGCDs when people can't be bothered to learn how they synergize? (Don't worry; they're mostly gone now.)
  
  
• Why have choiceful utility if either (A) it takes more work than just what sounds good on a job preview to balance for depth in practice or (B) people might oversimplify instruction into "you only want Balance" anyways? (Don't worry; it's gone now.)

Welcome to the already large graveyard that zero efforts made to facilitate and incentivize player learning, per your suggestions, would only expand further.

SE is a game development and publishing company. They are not educators. It's not their responsibility to get people interested in learning.

In learning their game? Yes it is. It absolutely is.