Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Miracle_Diva]

On the other side of this, these new players aren't being given the support they would need to be able to improve even if they wanted to. Forcing people into a mandatory tutorial won't fix the problem, but fixing the existing tutorial to teach more about each role's play pattern would. Quite simply, I think Hall of the Novice should have tutorials available running all the way up to the level cap. Still giving the Brand New Ring at the end of the "Basic Training" arc, but really, there needs to be more.

As it is right now, the only sources for reliable, easily accessed information are third party websites run by one particular discord community, you know which one.

Simple solution:
make community guides a thing accessible in game. There're TONS of useful guides on the internet. Job guides, dungeon/trial/raid guide, etc.

[Nethereal]

why don't you make use of your own advice and make some friends that would run duty roulette with you and your skill-impaired wife? that way, there's no danger of her being kicked and all of you could take all the time in the world to whatever content you want to do! you do have a guild and friends that do that, right?
actually that begs the question, if it's such a social game for you two, why would either of you use DF if you've got so many social contacts? wouldn't it make more sense for you to do it with friends since you can continue to shoot the shit inside said dungeon, instead of, say, having to interrupt a talk because the queue popped?

Lets lay off his wife, regardless of her... opinion on the matter... they are still separate individuals even if they both align closely together.
It's pretty clear at this point there's purposeful intellectual dishonesty going on and nothing we do or say can change that and I think I've derailed the thread enough alone with just these last 2 pages.

Firstly I love how elitists have equated "playing decently" as "decent human beings" which is a very different thing and has very little to do with how one plays a video game, but I shouldnt be surprised since historically certain gamers were happy to ignore slurs and other forms of bad behavior if the person "played well" or was entertaining.
Again you might need to start using different words because the ones you are using do not fit the situation unless you are specifically trying to tie game performance tosomeone's decency as a human being which is very underhanded and ugly.

Secondly I am honestly wondering how coddled can people with expectations like yours be, like, have they interacted with the real world outside of their family? This unrealistic expectation that defies reality screams that the person saying that must be incredibly out of touch with the real world to expect something as asinine as "everyone be like me and play like me", honestly it is mind boggling how coddled some people seem to be to have developed such expectations, that is not how the real world works and never will, learn to adapt, which I know can be an extremely hard task for people who follow guides xD

[Arkevorkhat]

Simple solution:
make community guides a thing accessible in game. There're TONS of useful guides on the internet. Job guides, dungeon/trial/raid guide, etc.

I agree in theory, but in practice, I'd worry about the need for moderation and vetting, and who would be responsible for doing so.
As much as it pains me to say, it seems like the GMs especially are somewhat disconnected, for lack of a better term, from the game at large; they mostly seem to keep to themselves and they often don't understand hard content. That deficiency in understanding has caused me issues when I made a GM call against a person who was griefing in a Savage party finder.

[Wavaryen]

still waiting for any points that people made to be debunked by you because that never happened, but I guess your narcissistic entitlement thinks you did
you can defend your wife without being a sexist pos, but I'm sure you're aware of that



can't believe he's agreeing with us :O

Nope, at the time i made my point clear. At how bad the rules was not being enforced, and even talked with a GM afterwards who told me they was sorry about the thread, and did not agree with how I handle it. But understood tempers was flaring because the people would not accept that my wife could not get help at the time.


Things have come a looong ways. Btw to answer your other question. DF is design to be easy and for players like her. So the content does not require her to do it. So why should she?


It takes a ton to irk me...but the community that day? Oh boy.

[Faafetai]

Firstly I love how elitists have equated "playing decently" as "decent human beings" which is a very different thing and has very little to do with how one plays a video game, but I shouldnt be surprised since historically certain gamers were happy to ignore slurs and other forms of bad behavior if the person "played well" or was entertaining.
Again you might need to start using different words because the ones you are using do not fit the situation unless you are specifically trying to tie game performance tosomeone's decency as a human being which is very underhanded and ugly.

Secondly I am honestly wondering how coddled can people with expectations like yours be, like, have they interacted with the real world outside of their family? This unrealistic expectation that defies reality screams that the person saying that must be incredibly out of touch with the real world to expect something as asinine as "everyone be like me and play like me", honestly it is mind boggling how coddled some people seem to be to have developed such expectations, that is not how the real world works and never will, learn to adapt, which I know can be an extremely hard task for people who follow guides xD

No I legitimately mean decent human being. Not treating a fellow human at the other end of the computer screen or tv in a video game like they are worthless or someone to use to complete something as fast as they can to get to the next thing. Read the whole of the argument I have been debating or any of it before you mince words. I never once said anything about wishing people to play like me. I have said I can't play well. I can't carry people as much as I would want to help a group of sprouts through a dungeon. I honestly expected better from you after reading some of your other posts, but you seem to be very glued to find posts reading one word and interpreting them in the most elitist way you could possibly post.

My post was to note that some of the people not pushing their buttons would be considered toxic elitists, expecting everything handed to them yesterday they may also be toxic casual but the terms are shallow and not one term could derive a description for someone who is simply a jerk. It just so happened that the toxic elitist was also a toxic casual. It was ironic because this thread has a bunch of people being called one or the other, but either are true or exclusive. Maybe you wish for a political stance so you could further put people into your narrow view of reality.

I don't like seeing people treated poorly for no good reason in a game that touts its 'great community' it seems the term gcbtw is quite true.

[MiaShino]

that's how they argue, they just skip over parts they don't have an answer to and try to move goalposts as soon as possible, as seen throughout this whole thread (and a similar one a while ago where it was a very similar topic and their posts were almost exactly the same, 60 year old granny that doesn't know what DoTs are included - though... have you two never tried to explain DoTs to her, shown her how they work?!)

My uncle is currently 69 years old and the first thing he did after watching us play and receiving minor advice was pull the entire clam room of Sastasha into the boss arena. His opening line; "Eyyyy team we gonna do this." I only wish I saw all of it or could know what his sprout healer was thinking at the time! He wishes to assist in leading our static if we ever form one but unfortunately works too many hours. He does have countless years of mmo experience I will admit though each game is different the way of thinking is what matters most.

Something close to; "How do you know you will fail if you never try?" or "Don't you wanna see what we can live through? Let's go big!" I learned really quickly how to heal and do deeps. Unsure where this story of theirs comes from but age does not mean much to me, I think anyone can still learn because I have seen it with my own eyes.

Sheeesh now that I am thinking of this (much better then the other nonsense being discussed yet again). Many of my family and extended family had some ideas most fantastic about helping teach players. Everyone who has done the Gunbreaker quest loves that one and only wishes that the big kitty mans was in your party so you can shirk them.

The same uncle went on a massive rant about the gladiator and marauder starter job quests, saying they do awful job of teaching tanking skills. They actually kinda do.. plus you do not even have your stance for two of them.

I was able to watch two of my friends sit down on the ground and do nothing for one of those gladiator quests. I cannot remember the name, it involves Aldis killing stuffs in the Ul'Dah adventurers guild. Yes, they did beat the quest.. by sitting.. doing nothing.. I died inside a little. Aldis eventually killed everything.

[Jojoya]

I bet, you didn't think before you wrote this. Probably because thinking isn't fun.

I thought very much before I wrote it.

Thinking absolutely can be fun for some people. I'm one of them. I like solving puzzles.

But I also like other things. I don't want to be spending all of my time solving puzzles when that's taking time away from other things I also want to do.

Not everyone finds THINK to be fun. They just want to relax after a stressful day doing other things. But perhaps your own ability to THINK is too narrow to understand that.

[Miracle_Diva]

I agree in theory, but in practice, I'd worry about the need for moderation and vetting, and who would be responsible for doing so.
As much as it pains me to say, it seems like the GMs especially are somewhat disconnected, for lack of a better term, from the game at large; they mostly seem to keep to themselves and they often don't understand hard content. That deficiency in understanding has caused me issues when I made a GM call against a person who was griefing in a Savage party finder.

I don't think that putting guides for moderation before they see the world is such a difficult thing. It's simpler than to rework HoN or add another system for sure.
A lot of people just don't like to look for things themselves, but with in game guides it would make their life easier.

[Miracle_Diva]

I thought very much before I wrote it.

Thinking absolutely can be fun for some people. I'm one of them. I like solving puzzles.

But I also like other things. I don't want to be spending all of my time solving puzzles when that's taking time away from other things I also want to do.

Not everyone finds THINK to be fun. They just want to relax after a stressful day doing other things. But perhaps your own ability to THINK is too narrow to understand that.

Well just don't do stressful or hard content if you want to relax? But I guess we now need to cater towards "tired" people when we make games. Right.

[Ralph2449]

No I legitimately mean decent human being. Not treating a fellow human at the other end of the computer screen or tv in a video game like they are worthless or someone to use to complete something as fast as they can to get to the next thing. Read the whole of the argument I have been debating or any of it before you mince words. I never once said anything about wishing people to play like me. I have said I can't play well. I can't carry people as much as I would want to help a group of sprouts through a dungeon. I honestly expected better from you after reading some of your other posts, but you seem to be very glued to find posts reading one word and interpreting them in the most elitist way you could possibly post.

My post was to note that some of the people not pushing their buttons would be considered toxic elitists, expecting everything handed to them yesterday they may also be toxic casual but the terms are shallow and not one term could derive a description for someone who is simply a jerk. It just so happened that the toxic elitist was also a toxic casual. It was ironic because this thread has a bunch of people being called one or the other, but either are true or exclusive. Maybe you wish for a political stance so you could further put people into your narrow view of reality.

I don't like seeing people treated poorly for no good reason in a game that touts its 'great community' it seems the term gcbtw is quite true.

Ok that would be my mistake then because I assumed you were attempting to connect player performance to being a "decent human being" which is something really wrong and ugly but wouldnt be surprised if certain gamers would attempt it.

Again though I will stand by my point that having such expectations from people is ridiculous, like you might wish for everyone to be nice and friendly and positive but sadly that will never be a thing, at least not at this day and age so having such expectations is silly because they will only get crushed repeatedly, you can be nice yourself and try to promote it but you cannot have such expectations because they are simply not realistic.


I can understand that you dont like it and especially the gcbtw but it honestly feels the worst people are often in the forums, my ingame experience though I am in JP DC has been incredibly positive, I think i ve only run once to an angry elitist who was insulting and literally spamming /spit on someone for not attacking adds in SHIVA NORMAL which can literally be beaten with 2-3 dps dead so him obsessing over adds was moronic, which is something i instantly reported and thankfully his emote spam made it reportable by me as well.

Most people's ingame experience seems to be extremely positive which can make people feel like it is a great community, only once you come into the forums or start going into high end groups you start seeing this massive amount of tryhard elitists attacking others and whining about how their runs are less efficient, something that a big part of the community never really sees which makes the great community thing kinda true for them.