Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Shurrikhan]

...

I'd have to disagree with some of the other proponents of additional learning facilitators/checks in that I think this population is nearer to 2 or 3%, rather than a whopping 5%.

Granted, I'm also not even expecting people to use their whole kits, just not cancel their combos, use AoEs as appropriate, and at least cycle... most of their pertinent oGCDs... so if I expected a bit more from others, it might well rise to that 5% or slightly more.

Again, though, I don't think the question ought to be about how large the group that can most benefit from the suggested changes is, but rather how large the positive change, across all players, would likely be. And I think the latter is pretty huge, especially if bundled as it should be with other opportunities for polish, especially across the pre-Shadowbringers experience.

[SomeRandomHuman]

So are you saying you encounter one of these people more than once out of every 20 runs? Careful, before you immediately hammer that out that they're in "soo many DF's" think hard. Negative experiences tend to stand out and we tend not to remember the other 200 runs we did that went smoothly and were just another 12 minute DF.

Maybe it's my data center but I find actual non-contributory people to be incredibly rare and people who don't respond to gentle coaching even rarer.

The simple presence of "easier" roads to endgame don't necessarily mean there is an epidemic of people who want to be carried. There is an overlap with people with actual disabilities, limitations and those who play only for the story and organize their own willing carry parties who you'd NEVER meet in a DF.


Why is that too many just because you increased the number? 5% is 5%. Chances of encountering those people remain the same.

Well for starters 5% is 5% yes, but you're not accounting that said 5% is going to have most of that 5% in the NA datacenters. While their are some in EU and most likely a handful in JPN. I don't have a number of NA accounts to compare that 1.1 million to but I can tell you sure that it's a significantly higher percentage than 5% when compared to the NA account population.

We've all had bad experiences and I know you can't tell you've had no bad experiences in a game this big. Due to all the bad experiences I've dealt with over the years I've become relatively recluse in-game much like I am irl.

Next is the people with disabilities. As someone who is mentally handicapped themselves, I have 0 issues with disabled individuals needing to take things a bit slower-paced. In fact, I've played with an old friend who lost part of one arm in the conflicts in the middle-east. I say old friend since he passed 3 years ago from mental health issues. Let me tell you this though: it took him a few extra minutes to get situated, but once he got comfortable you wouldn't have been able to tell he was only playing with one hand. The only give away I could possibly notice was small delays in repositioning his character.

Being story focused isn't an excuse to cop a nasty attitude to people that genuinely try to help you improve. That's the other big thing and this is what separates those that want to improve and those that just don't care. It's easy to try to be cordial, but if someone decides to take everything as an attack... I think it's clear who's in the wrong.

[Ralph2449]

I've never said it's the GM team's responsibility. I've said earlier in this thread that the community needs to address this actually. Just trying to stomp out the resistance where we can first.

And that is why I will always disagree with that because game communities are rarely healthy or have normal standards, take WoW's community for example which is known for its elitism and toxicity, if you arent a metaslave getting into groups is 4 times harder even if you are a better player because the community brainlessly values metaslaving over anything else because you really cant quantify good play(unless you start from day 1 of the patch so your r.io is ahead of the curve, i dare you to change mains later on though cuz linking main isnt as useful as some believe)
So we have a community who falsely believes the only way to clear things is only with broken meta combs and anything else is """unviable""" even though many times this """unviable""" thing performs better than the metaslaves who simply play something they dont like because they were told its meta.
The amount of times throughout the years I had people in wow go like "Omg i didnt know X """unviable""" spec I played was good" and be completely surprised because they brainlessly listened to THE COMMUNITY are too many to count.

And let's not even go to the area where THE COMMUNITY demands ilvl equal to the rewards of said content to invite someone.

So no, I absolutely am against THE COMMUNITY ever having too much power because THE COMMUNITY is more often than not very very wrong on many things because they blindly follow simple guides or streamers and never truly understand the game.

[SomeRandomHuman]

And that is why I will always disagree with that because game communities are rarely healthy or have normal standards, take WoW's community for example which is known for its elitism and toxicity, if you arent a metaslave getting into groups is 4 times harder even if you are a better player because the community brainlessly values metaslaving over anything else because you really cant quantify good play(unless you start from day 1 of the patch so your r.io is ahead of the curve, i dare you to change mains later on though cuz linking main isnt as useful as some believe)
So we have a community who falsely believes the only way to clear things is only with broken meta combs and anything else is """unviable""" even though many times this """unviable""" thing performs better than the metaslaves who simply play something they dont like because they were told its meta.
The amount of times throughout the years I had people in wow go like "Omg i didnt know X """unviable""" spec I played was good" and be completely surprised because they brainlessly listened to THE COMMUNITY are too many to count.

And let's not even go to the area where THE COMMUNITY demands ilvl equal to the rewards of said content to invite someone.

So no, I absolutely am against THE COMMUNITY ever having too much power because THE COMMUNITY is more often than not very very wrong on many things because they blindly follow simple guides or streamers and never truly understand the game.

And here we go with the exaggerations... again.

Yoshi P himself has said MANY times that everything is able to be done with any combination of jobs. People trying to undermine this are the ones who take things too far.

But setting a standard level of play at being able to perform the basic* rotation and mechanics of the job you're playing is perfectly acceptable.

*Knowing how your combos work, using your buffs/debuffs occationally, making use of any oGCD dps actions part of the time, basic understanding of any DoTs and their interactions with the job's kit, and know the main gimmick of the job to the point you know how to make use of it on a partial level.

[Shurrikhan]

So no, I absolutely am against THE COMMUNITY ever having too much power because THE COMMUNITY is more often than not very very wrong on many things because they blindly follow simple guides or streamers and never truly understand the game.

...How did you even find this much straw?

The topic is about reducing community gatekeeping or what would incentivize such by having the game itself -- NOT the community -- better facilitate growth and preparedness.

That the community is thinking about how that might be done is no different than the various other QoL features we've theorized, asked for, and gotten select parts of. That does not make those in-game features somehow a matter of jumping through community hoops, no matter how badly you slant them.

[Ralph2449]

Yoshi P himself has said MANY times that everything is able to be done with any combination of jobs.

Ion himself has also many times said all specs are balanced to be able to clear all game content(bar world first), and even though bad average metaslaves will disagree because the sims show X meta class do 20% more damage the fact remains that all content included mythic raids can be done by all specs after the first few weeks where people have farmed some mythic gear so they can easily get over that 20% metaslave advantage(Advantage that only exists if you are able to abuse said meta spec btw).

That is the truth, what does THE COMMUNITY instead do? Refuse to believe that non meta classes are viable for content and keeps labeling anything non meta "unviable" and keeps crying about how terrible everything is.

THE COMMUNITY cannot be trusted because it is filled by easy to influence and basic people who never bother to understand the game indepth like the devs, it doesnt matter that the lead dev says something that goes against community beliefs, THE COMMUNITY will keep ignoring them and keep living on its own bubble where everything non meta is unviable because that is easy and simple to spread, and that is why you should never listen to THE COMMUNITY.

With the huge influx of wow players in FF14 and its rising in popularity dont be surprised if after a while some sweaty people figure out which 8 man comb has 2% more dps and start advertising that and THE COMMUNITY starts pretending dps jobs outside of that list are "unviable".

[Shurrikhan]

Ion himself has also many times said all specs are balanced to be able to clear all game content(bar world first), and even though bad average metaslaves will disagree because the sims show X meta class do 20% more damage the fact remains that all content included mythic raids can be done by all specs after the first few weeks where people have farmed some mythic gear so they can easily get over that 20% metaslave advantage(Advantage that only exists if you are able to abuse said meta spec btw).

He also leaves both specs and fights laden with bugs placing them apart from their theoretical values, if not outright unbeatable, which, in the case of specs, he admits to only after finally discovering the cause of the discrepancy many months later...

If he'd actually used more than voluntary player labor for his playtesting, and released the versions that had thus been successfully playtested, what you're saying might mean something.

Except, of course, in that high-end difficulty fights can absolutely be passed or failed on the basis of a 20% damage difference, or even just a difference in the timing of said damage. Theirs actually have DPS checks.

[SomeRandomHuman]

Ion himself has also many times said all specs are balanced to be able to clear all game content(bar world first), and even though bad average metaslaves will disagree because the sims show X meta class do 20% more damage the fact remains that all content included mythic raids can be done by all specs after the first few weeks where people have farmed some mythic gear so they can easily get over that 20% metaslave advantage(Advantage that only exists if you are able to abuse said meta spec btw).

That is the truth, what does THE COMMUNITY instead do? Refuse to believe that non meta classes are viable for content and keeps labeling anything non meta "unviable" and keeps crying about how terrible everything is.

THE COMMUNITY cannot be trusted because it is filled by easy to influence and basic people who never bother to understand the game indepth like the devs, it doesnt matter that the lead dev says something that goes against community beliefs, THE COMMUNITY will keep ignoring them and keep living on its own bubble where everything non meta is unviable because that is easy and simple to spread, and that is why you should never listen to THE COMMUNITY.

With the huge influx of wow players in FF14 and its rising in popularity dont be surprised if after a while some sweaty people figure out which 8 man comb has 2% more dps and start advertising that and THE COMMUNITY starts pretending dps jobs outside of that list are "unviable".

This has always happened in XIV. It's been a thing since long before WoW players starting swarming to XIV. It's always going to have a certain stigma because it's an MMO. That's also the main reason why they never did any extra effects on actions. That's why people start their own raid groups when they can't find one.

The community can be a toxic cesspool yes, but I'm sure you've heard the legends of the lines of Dark Knights in memory of Berserk's author passing away. I've also read of small memorial events happening from time to time on servers where a player has died or become otherwise incapacitated.

As long as the community is strong enough to focus on the positive more than the negative it has the potential to work out great, but this is social psychology territory and we know how tricky this basket is.

[Krotoan]

Again, though, I don't think the question ought to be about how large the group that can most benefit from the suggested changes is, but rather how large the positive change, across all players, would likely be. And I think the latter is pretty huge, especially if bundled as it should be with other opportunities for polish, especially across the pre-Shadowbringers experience.

I'm not worried about who benefits though, I'm concerned with who gets excluded. How many players lose access to this game because a few players on the higher end can't stand an occasional "slow" DF or have to kick someone?

Well for starters 5% is 5% yes, but you're not accounting that said 5% is going to have most of that 5% in the NA datacenters. While their are some in EU and most likely a handful in JPN. I don't have a number of NA accounts to compare that 1.1 million to but I can tell you sure that it's a significantly higher percentage than 5% when compared to the NA account population.

You're just throwing numbers around to make your hypothetical problem sound worse now. You quoted 5% to show that if 5% of 22 million players is a lot of people. Yes that is. But your original idea of under 5% of people being so bad they're actually a detriment to the experience still just means 1 out of 20 instance runs which I'd say is well within what I experience (as someone who constantly caps their tomes and weekly lockouts). Are you that sure that more than 5% of the ACTIVE playerbase in NA is so bad they just cruise on auto-attack in dungeons and are so noticeably detrimental that they slow down an entire raid for faceroll content like crystal tower, OR are causing so much issues by being the one or two dead people in an actual attention requiring raid that they're wiping attempts?


Or do you just see bad (as in technically, not morally) people dying and wish that didn't happen ever because it's slightly annoying?

We've all had bad experiences and I know you can't tell you've had no bad experiences in a game this big. Due to all the bad experiences I've dealt with over the years I've become relatively recluse in-game much like I am irl.

As a fellow anti-social recluse (lol Quarantine? you mean just the same ol routine?) I can tell you that yes, I have had bad experiences and over the 10+ years I have played this game I've experienced every BM thing you can imagine. People with horrible gear or cheesing item levels just to be in stuff, people who don't know mechanics and "share" the tankbuster or spread markers in endgame, people who throw tantrums at the slightest IDEA you suggest a change in their routine, the list goes on and on. But that's just people and NOT the usual experience for this game. I continue to experience a lions share of people getting encounters done in a reasonable amount of time and really.. not saying anything as long as I hold up my part. I tank, I heal (ok kinda badly), and I DPS and the stuff gets done and in 20 minutes I'm on the next thing..


My point being that yes there's crappy experiences to be had but they aren't nearly enough to straight up gate people out of experiencing this game.

Next is the people with disabilities. As someone who is mentally handicapped themselves, I have 0 issues with disabled individuals needing to take things a bit slower-paced. In fact, I've played with an old friend who lost part of one arm in the conflicts in the middle-east. I say old friend since he passed 3 years ago from mental health issues. Let me tell you this though: it took him a few extra minutes to get situated, but once he got comfortable you wouldn't have been able to tell he was only playing with one hand. The only give away I could possibly notice was small delays in repositioning his character.

Wonderful. I'm happy your friend overcame his disability and was able to meet your standards for gameplay (and my condolences for losing someone you cared about even a long time ago) . Some people can't. Some people LITERALLY CANNOT. They physically or mentally cannot do better than pushing a couple buttons every few seconds and some cannot remember or process the complexity of even basic endgame rotations. These people would be excluded with "hard walls" and are likely what "easy" modes are for just like added accessibility for deaf or colorblind people. I don't think "easy" modes are just to let leeches into peoples precious endgame optimal runs.

Being story focused isn't an excuse to cop a nasty attitude to people that genuinely try to help you improve. That's the other big thing and this is what separates those that want to improve and those that just don't care. It's easy to try to be cordial, but if someone decides to take everything as an attack... I think it's clear who's in the wrong.

Being bad at the game or not being able to mechanically keep up is one thing , being outright rude is another. I don't abide being vile in any way and it has no place in this game. Don't expect people who feel you're trying to kick them out of the entire game to take it well though and I'm pretty sure you can kick people without telling them they suck first.

[Caurcas]

Alot of words defending players not hitting the right, glowy buttons. We exist in a COMMUNITY.