Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Ralph2449]

No one's asking SE to focus solely on the high end and ignore the casual.

All people have been asking for in this thread for SE to put something into the game that would encourage players to play better on average.

There may be disagreements on the degree of improvement that's needed or exactly how to put that into the game, but most people don't disagree that SE could do something to increase the average skill level of players.

The problem is each person's "average" is very very different, elitist think it is average to just roflstomp and quickly do any kind of encounter efficiently and anything below that is "omg noob casuals never improve ultra bad, i am leaving, you are hopeless", that is not average, that is an inflated requirement to get their fast efficient runs certain people seem to be entitled to for some reason.

The devs on the other hand understand that an average is needed so they implement min.ilvl caps since you cant quantify average performance checks, now issue with most mmorpgs is that utility is not taught or needed as much in most of the content since 90% of the content can be done easily even without using utility which leads to people not knowing or not using it often.

The solution to that is simple, you make utility as vital as combat, you make utility needed to be used in all forms of content even at lower end or you either die or if you really feel like that is too much, you are incredibly inconvenienced if you ignore using your utility such as getting stunned for a while, knockback and in other ways have your combat disrupted.

My point about WoW is that the elitist git gud crowd whose ego depends on video game achievements is extremely toxic, and if they start listening to them we get the same situation we see in WoW, it starts friendly and nice like that "we are just trying to help people get better" and leads to them demanding casual content be nerfed because they are "forced" to do it for the rewards which is why I am thankful that it honestly seem SE devs have been studying WoW and know what not to do.

[Roeshel]

We're talking about people playing on a basic level. How does that mean we're elitist?

Note: basic level means that they can perform their natural rotations(combo chains, oGCD use) and their job mechanics at least partially. Generally talking level 70+.

It's simple, they think they are playing on a basic level. They think that because they haven't been kicked enough. When you have a tank who is single pulling, a healer that is spam healing, or DPS single targeting pack of mobs you should tell them how to play, kick them or leave the dungeon yourself. These are community standards that you guys want to fix, it is not an issue directly related to the game but with the community itself. You shouldn't be asking the GMs to fix the things that are wrong in your community, they can't do that and they won't even try it.

[SomeRandomHuman]

It's simple, they think they are playing on a basic level. They think that because they haven't been kicked enough. When you have a tank who is single pulling, a healer that is spam healing, or DPS single targeting pack of mobs you should tell them how to play, kick them or leave the dungeon yourself. These are community standards that you guys want to fix, it is not an issue directly related to the game but with the community itself. You shouldn't be asking the GMs to fix the things that are wrong in your community, they can't do that and they won't even try it.

I've never said it's the GM team's responsibility. I've said earlier in this thread that the community needs to address this actually. Just trying to stomp out the resistance where we can first.

[Krotoan]

most people don't disagree that SE could do something to increase the average skill level of players.

They could, but whether they do it by gating anyone who doesn't meet standards OFF... or making more resources to learn basics more visible is a major point of contention.

Also.. SHOULD they?

Is this supposed population of F rank players that huge that this is even necessary? Or is it being wildly exaggerated and/or including people who are slightly below calibrated thresholds who might slow things down but aren't any more than a minor inconvenience?

[van_arn]

I used to be big on having Square add stuff to teach players how to play, but it’s clear they don’t want to do that anymore. The game has tooltips and a mountain of resources to teach, but nothing in the game is going to force people to learn no matter how it’s placed.

At one time I tight solo fights could act as progress blockers, but easy/very easy difficulty setting options killed that entirely.

I suppose the only option left would be to have a progress-blocking gate fight in the leadup to savage or the extreme trial series that would be difficult enough to keep truly undesirables out, but not so difficult people would complain.

I take that back; people complained a 4-button fight as Hien that could be cleared without pressing any buttons was too hard in Stormblood. There’s no salvaging this; if people want to learn, they’ll learn. Kick them if you don’t want them 61+.

[SomeRandomHuman]

They could, but whether they do it by gating anyone who doesn't meet standards OFF... or making more resources to learn basics more visible is a major point of contention.

Also.. SHOULD they?

Is this supposed population of F rank players that huge that this is even necessary? Or is it being wildly exaggerated and/or including people who are slightly below calibrated thresholds who might slow things down but aren't any more than a minor inconvenience?

Would you enjoy playing with a DPS that only uses 1/5th of their skills just because they feel they don't have to do anything else since everyone else in the party will do the rest for them? They're not a huge number, but they're a bigger number than it should be.

[Krotoan]

Would you enjoy playing with a DPS that only uses 1/5th of their skills just because they feel they don't have to do anything else since everyone else in the party will do the rest for them? They're not a huge number, but they're a bigger number than it should be.

For 15 to 20 minutes once every 200 runs? I honestly don't care. You say "they're a bigger number than they should be" ... would your threshold be >0?

[SomeRandomHuman]

For 15 to 20 minutes once every 200 runs? I honestly don't care. You say "they're a bigger number than they should be" ... would your threshold be >0?

Nope. I know it's impossible to weed every single one out. I'd prefer the playerbase population at this abysmal mentality be less than 5% ideally. Given we've needed things like solo trial difficulties to be made easier and for some jobs to be dumbed down to god-awful levels just proves that there's too many people complaining that they have to put a modicum of effort into a video game.

For reference 5% of 22 million is 1.1 million. This is still too many imo, but you gotta start somewhere.

[Seera1024]

The problem is each person's "average" is very very different, elitist think it is average to just roflstomp and quickly do any kind of encounter efficiently and anything below that is "omg noob casuals never improve ultra bad, i am leaving, you are hopeless", that is not average, that is an inflated requirement to get their fast efficient runs certain people seem to be entitled to for some reason.

The devs on the other hand understand that an average is needed so they implement min.ilvl caps since you cant quantify average performance checks, now issue with most mmorpgs is that utility is not taught or needed as much in most of the content since 90% of the content can be done easily even without using utility which leads to people not knowing or not using it often.

And you've missed my point.

My point is that SE could do more to increase the average skill level of players.

Like you assigned a point value to every piece of knowledge about the combat in this game and if you gave points based on that and how well people used said knowledge you'd get the skill level of players.

A brand new just got through the initial cut scene and this is a player's first MMO would have a skill level of 0. They likely know nothing. Someone coming from another MMO would likely have some knowledge of tanking and healing even if they haven't played those roles before. They may start off with a skill level of 10.

A player like Caurcas whose been playing a long time and prefers the harder content would likely have a high score. Because they know a lot about the game.

There's nothing subjective about "do you know about X?" or "do you implement X when appropriate?" You either do or you don't.

The average I'm talking about is if you took all of those skill levels together of say players who have hit max level and average those skills. That's the average I'm talking about.

SE could do more to increase the average skill level of players.

Whether it's something they need to do or should do or how much is needed or how much they should is the purpose of this thread.

This game will not be hurt if SE decides to try to get the average player skill level to increase in and of itself. It all depends on how exactly they go about doing it.

[Krotoan]

Nope. I know it's impossible to weed every single one out. I'd prefer the playerbase population at this abysmal mentality be less than 5% ideally. Given we've needed things like solo trial difficulties to be made easier and for some jobs to be dumbed down to god-awful levels just proves that there's too many people complaining that they have to put a modicum of effort into a video game.

So are you saying you encounter one of these people more than once out of every 20 runs? Careful, before you immediately hammer that out that they're in "soo many DF's" think hard. Negative experiences tend to stand out and we tend not to remember the other 200 runs we did that went smoothly and were just another 12 minute DF.

Maybe it's my data center but I find actual non-contributory people to be incredibly rare and people who don't respond to gentle coaching even rarer.

The simple presence of "easier" roads to endgame don't necessarily mean there is an epidemic of people who want to be carried. There is an overlap with people with actual disabilities, limitations and those who play only for the story and organize their own willing carry parties who you'd NEVER meet in a DF.

For reference 5% of 22 million is 1.1 million. This is still too many imo, but you gotta start somewhere.

Why is that too many just because you increased the number? 5% is 5%. Chances of encountering those people remain the same.