Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Rinhi]

The dungeon or instance gets done a little slower but it's at most a 20-30 minute thing. It's not great but it's also not the brain destroying ordeal others make it out to be.

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long

I mean, one could also interpret it as:

The people trying to improve the playerbase: whining that certain players are playing the game as the devs designed/intended.

The contrarians: playing the game as it was designed and/or intended.

It's not some black and white "all casuals are lazy terrible players". The vast majority of casuals are competent at their rotations, although maybe not so much the perfect timing and/or weaving of skills/cool downs.

There absolutely are lazy idiots and/or trolls out there, but the vast majority of casual players are those playing at maybe 75% efficiency; probably can't clear current-tier EX without a carry, but also probably don't care to do it in the first place.

then again, the devs have also intended for players to do savage and extreme content and a big part of the JP playerbase does just that, while the EU and NA servers only have a fraction of those numbers or even attempts

Like I said before, do you all really care that people get better. Or are you wanting players to get "better" to your standards because you want DF groups to do the content faster?

do you have a big enough wall for that projection? "you only want people to be faster for your own gain"
no, I simply want people to play better/improve and I'll continue to do that in every game or activity I do
a healer standing around for 90% of the dungeon or trial doing nothing is not playing the game, they might as well be afk, a tank single pulling might as well not be a tank because a dps does the single pull job better than any tank could
what exactly is wrong with wanting people to improve? what exactly is the issue with people wanting to help others?
but nah, gotta defend the kind of players that cause people to leave or vote abandon, those are the REAL players who the devs made the game for, yeah!

[Wavaryen]

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long



then again, the devs have also intended for players to do savage and extreme content and a big part of the JP playerbase does just that, while the EU and NA servers only have a fraction of those numbers or even attempts



do you have a big enough wall for that projection? "you only want people to be faster for your own gain"
no, I simply want people to play better/improve and I'll continue to do that in every game or activity I do
a healer standing around for 90% of the dungeon or trial doing nothing is not playing the game, they might as well be afk, a tank single pulling might as well not be a tank because a dps does the single pull job better than any tank could
what exactly is wrong with wanting people to improve? what exactly is the issue with people wanting to help others?
but nah, gotta defend the kind of players that cause people to leave or vote abandon, those are the REAL players who the devs made the game for, yeah!

Plenty wrong with it. Why does it matter if they improve? What are you getting out of it? They are having fun, they enjoy the game, and the content gets done. It is designed for them. So you telling me that you want people to improve out of the kindness of your heart? If you are so kind, than why can't you just accept that people might play bad at the class but still having fun.




Your last comment says it all. Players who causes others to leave. You are trying to improve the quality of DF, Lets not pretend like you stand on a higher moral ground by thinking what is best for anyone. Leaving a bad group is not that big of a deal. You will get another one, and the person who is having fun and might not be doing so well. Will find someone else that does not mind it. As long as the content gets done.


Like I said. The content is designed for players like them. They don't need to improve and this might be a shocker...but many people still have fun being bad at the game. And rather play in a way they enjoy. Because at the end of the day, it is still a game. They are doing content they belong in. So your help is not needed and wanted for some of them. It kinda comes off as self center a little to even say I just want players to be better in a game for no personal reasons at all. All because some people are not happy that the content takes longer to do! . Hmmmm

[ZedxKayn]

It kinda comes off as self center...

The total and utter irony in this statement.

You're basically saying how someone play doesn't matter, as long as they have fun, and that it's designed for them. But no, until the MSQ won't be required to do harder content, it is not designed for them, it is designed for everyone, simply because they would never clear without anyone to carry them.

And what about the fun of the people they get matched with? Why ruin the fun of 3 other players by quite literally taking advantage of their efforts. Why do the underperformer's fun matters but not the rest of the party's?

Casual content is balanced around enabling leeches to get by, unfortunately, but by no means is it designed for them.

[Wavaryen]

The total and utter irony in this statement.

You're basically saying how someone play doesn't matter, as long as they have fun, and that it's designed for them. But no, until the MSQ won't be required to do harder content, it is not designed for them, it is designed for everyone, simply because they would never clear without anyone to carry them.

And what about the fun of the people they get matched with? Why ruin the fun of 3 other players by quite literally taking advantage of their efforts. Why do the underperformer's fun matters but not the rest of the party's?

Casual content is balanced around enabling leeches to get by, unfortunately, but by no means is it designed for them.

That is false. It is not design for people who know your class, and how to play. Because the content is way too easy for that. If it was design for us. It would test us some. It does not. So that is like saying. Ok this fisher price toy is pretty cool, and fun. Ya, but it was made for a kid.



A group full of leeches can get through the content. They don't need us to do said content. So who are they leeching off of? and if your fun gets ruined so easily by having a bad group. That is really a you problem. They should not care about your issues. You lose nothing but time leaving and finding a new group. The content is easy enough that a group of bad players can get through it. So they are not really leeching with that logic.

[Rinhi]

Plenty wrong with it. Why does it matter if they improve? What are you getting out of it? They are having fun, they enjoy the game, and the content gets done. It is designed for them. So you telling me that you want people to improve out of the kindness of your heart? If you are so kind, than why can't you just accept that people might play bad at the class but still having fun.

because it's very self-centered to do so in a multiplayer game? a game about cooperation where you're adamantly defending people refusing to cooperate and instead impose their selfish
"it is designed for them" come the f on, dude, just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it's true, content is there to be played, not being afk through'd

actual elitists wouldn't even bother to argue with people like you, to try and make you understand - because they simply don't do the same content and they know it's not worth the hassle, but keep painting "us" as elitist tryhards because we want people to actually use their damn abilities

Like I said. The content is designed for players like them. They don't need to improve and this might be a shocker...but many people still have fun being bad at the game. And rather play in a way they enjoy. Because at the end of the day, it is still a game. They are doing content they belong in. So your help is not needed and wanted for some of them. It kinda comes off as self center a little to even say I just want players to be better in a game for no personal reasons at all. All because some people are not happy that the content takes longer to do!

they don't need to improve because they pass your insanely low standards, but having some kind of higher standard has you frothing at your mouth, makes sense
no one cares if someone is bad at the game if the player in question is willing to improve, but that's too much to ask or expect apparently
not a single dungeon in this game should take longer than 20-25 minutes with a bad DF group and yet, I've experienced plenty of +40 min runs because of players like you who are imposing their selfish and toxic behaviour and playstyle onto others
and now that I think about that, most of those were players with matching last names that threw a hissy fit when the person who held everything up was kicked and started doing everything to ruin the rest of the party's fun, what a coincidence!

It kinda comes off as self center a little to even say I just want players to be better in a game for no personal reasons at all

"you are self-centered if you want to help people" ok dude

[Wavaryen]

because it's very self-centered to do so in a multiplayer game? a game about cooperation where you're adamantly defending people refusing to cooperate and instead impose their selfish
"it is designed for them" come the f on, dude, just because you keep saying it doesn't mean it's true, content is there to be played, not being afk through'd

actual elitists wouldn't even bother to argue with people like you, to try and make you understand - because they simply don't do the same content and they know it's not worth the hassle, but keep painting "us" as elitist tryhards because we want people to actually use their damn abilities



they don't need to improve because they pass your insanely low standards, but having some kind of higher standard has you frothing at your mouth, makes sense
no one cares if someone is bad at the game if the player in question is willing to improve, but that's too much to ask or expect apparently
not a single dungeon in this game should take longer than 20-25 minutes with a bad DF group and yet, I've experienced plenty of +40 min runs because of players like you who are imposing their selfish and toxic behaviour and playstyle onto others
and now that I think about that, most of those were players with matching last names that threw a hissy fit when the person who held everything up was kicked and started doing everything to ruin the rest of the party's fun, what a coincidence!



"you are self-centered if you want to help people" ok dude

Are you understanding what you are saying here? That because this is a mutiplayer game. They must meet other players standards. Not the game itself standards. That takes a level of ego I don't even have, and I came from wow leading mythic raids.



I only act like you all when I lead a guild, and have expectations on the people I was leading. When I was doing content that require people to give 110 percent. Just to get it done.



The few times that I went into a pug group. I never ONCE put expectations on people who I pug with. It is not my place. I used a tool that made a group for me. The people in that group they can play how they want. Why? Because they are not in my guild. I don't lead them. They don't follow me. They have a right to play however they want. be it good bad, or omg afk vote kick please.


That is it. it is that simple. The content rewards YOU for dealing with them types of players. And these players have content they can do that is fun. They don't NEED to get better because the game itself is saying it is ok. You don't need to. Enjoy yourself.



So who are you or I to tell them how to play when the game says it is ok for them to play like that?


It takes a pretty big ego to do something like that.

[SomeRandomHuman]

So who are you or I to tell them how to play when the game says it is ok for them to play like that?

So then why do we have all these extra actions if only 2-3 are required? You still have yet to answer this properly.

[Wavaryen]

If you read correctly, she laughed about someone else. You should better be more informed. But thanks for compliment.
Maybe you should take some sleep and read the last few pages again (including mine posts).

Sure, you havent a problem with bad players. You have a problem with normal players. Thats why you re not able to adjust to your group. You keep your playstyle, no matter what (which is often proven by your previous posts). If you have some empathy, you would also know the difference between "bad" players and "bad" players and why its a big deal.

Some players are bad, because they are new or just limited. But they dont actaully bad, because they at least try their best. They communicate and wants to improve theirselves. They pay attention and actually play the game. Thats why I have no problem with those kinds of players. I love them. Those are making my runs more exciting than any other content. Interacting with other people is what makes MMORPGs so great.

But then we have the real bad players. Players, who are lazy and selfish. Players, who refuse to accept any critism or not willing to interact with others. They mistake FFXIV as a single player game, where everyone is their personal NPC. Those are parasites who wants to ruin the game for everyone just for the luls. No matter in clear-groups or in duty roulette, they are king (some of them even wearing a crown).


I hope its crystal clear now, because I dont want to repeat myself again ^^.




I would love to invite you to a 120 minute crystal tower run.

You are right, I had to go back and make sure. I thought you was the one mixing real life with the game. Or whatever she was saying that made her laugh for a good min.

So then why do we have all these extra actions if only 2-3 are required? You still have yet to answer this properly.

You should know the answer to that. For content that requires it.

[Krotoan]

that's like... almost double the time an average DF run takes? even with a no DPS healer it shouldn't take that long

Like I said. At most. MOST of the time it's less. So being that 20 minutes is an extreme, then it can be said that as long as people are pushing some buttons and tanking at least one pack at a time, it's not like people are suffering through a full timer.

Interesting strawman, but I'll admit to the low-hanging fruit there.

look.. when you say things like "other games, even other MMO's" it sounds like you're making comparisons.

In what you've quoted, I have not compared XIV to other MMOs, or even other games generally. I compared how we treat the concept of a difficulty curve and in-game situated learning. Anywhere else, its the basis for a good game. Here, it's as often treated as satanic.

The problem isn't that the game gets harder or that people even have a problem with "endgame" being harder though.. the problem seems to be that people don't want ANYONE else to get to that point without requiring them to learn a "standard". The difficulty curve exists and is rewarded in general with faster runs and in certain instances unique loot or opportunities. It's not like the actual progression and layering of elements in the game doesn't have a good ramp up, though admittedly there are some bumps in between say, extreme and normal, but again.. extreme (or savage/ultimatewhatever) content IS that gated content where you need to know the fight to pass in general. I don't think one person here has said that they expect to flop their weight on 7 other people in that content and they deserve a carry or has said that people should do that.

"The endgame experience have more going on than midgame" or "cumulative learning" or "gradually increasing complexity/difficulty" are not new or controversial concepts.

Nor is it is new or controversial to want not to create systems of incentives that will split your playerbase in an increasingly irredeemable fashion, let alone towards some sort of poorly understood quasi-class warfare -- "casuals" vs. "hardcore" who nonetheless overlap, individual to individual, across every criteria] -- as we have here.

Not it isn't.. I don't think anyone said that it doesnt?

Consider: How much of the game is actually presented attractively to a given player, be they the mythical Conny Casual, Eddie Elite, or anyone in between? What does the game do to draw in someone who might not be inherently interested in the combat aspects (which are still some 90% of the game's content, no matter how you cut it)? What does it do to actually let highly anxious people step over the hurdle to enter Extreme trials or Savage, if they want that level of depth, but want to be and feel prepared (besides yet again telling the community to make up the difference on their own)?

Pretty much every single "normal" fight trains you in the basic telegraphs as you progress. Once you get into savages those elements are all jammed together, sometimes with new twists you have to figure out but as death has no real particular punishments they are easily hashed out with trial and error and or actually talking to the other players who IN GENERAL don't have a problem with at least guiding someone towards a good resource if not outright being the resource themselves

Initially, there's little. HoN is a boon, but a small one, because it's neither directly situated nor does it do much to actually draw players' interests. You go if you have that interest. And if you've no such interest despite that its information would have been useful to you, the game, by readies the rut for you. Follow it to have access only to an increasingly narrow span of the game's combat content, replacing such with further social conflict.

It's location near the sastasha entrance and I believe slight sidequest line (it has been a hot minute since I've done it) to seek it out is plenty enough for people who are willing to learn or just curious about what that weird icon on the map is.

For the later gaps, though, there's nothing. You can see all the mechanics symbols likely to be repurposed, but unless the concepts and habits necessary for that later content is centered upon and drawn attention to, however unintrusively, it will click for some --for whom Savage will be presented about as attractively as its sum of actual mechanics, novelty, etc., can be to that individual-- and not for others -- for whom that content will not be given a remotely attractive view.

So, yes, it does have much to do with inclusivity, in the same way that good pedagogical or instructional practices anywhere, even if not necessary for anyone and everyone, still benefit the given community, especially if it's often grouped as one.

So.. you want advertising to pay attention to how to play the game? That's what I'm getting.. but not what other people are posting though.. Other people are suggesting hard gated roadblocks to keep people out of their high level runs and content.

So while it' be nice if people were invited, guided, and included into the "difficult" content, this should not make it so people who never would and have no interest in the first place should have to meet standards, since this would likely kill their interest in the game entirely.

[Wavaryen]

So.. you want advertising to pay attention to how to play the game? That's what I'm getting.. but not what other people are posting though.. Other people are suggesting hard gated roadblocks to keep people out of their high level runs and content.

So while it' be nice if people were invited, guided, and included into the "difficult" content, this should not make it so people who never would and have no interest in the first place should have to meet standards, since this would likely kill their interest in the game entirely.

That is the part that rubs me the wrong way about this. I gave examples of why the convenience of DF is balance around these sort of players. That push people that wants a higher chance of doing dungeons. To be social and build a network. But even with that logic aside. Asking people who are having fun, who only really don't do end game stuff and just do DF. That is super easy for us. It is tough for some of them! I know shocking right? making it even harder, and teaching them is just going to make them not do it. And I think that is what some of the people here want, either get better or stay out of DF. Making it not fun for them anymore.


Let "bad" players enjoy the darn game also.