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  1. #1
    Player Wavaryen's Avatar
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    Teladi Bishop
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    Balmung
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    Fisher Lv 90
    If this was like mythic plus in wow. Where you lose something for having a bad group. I could understand, but besides time what are you losing for having a bad group? Lets not make it out that a bad group is such a bad thing, that it needs help in not happening.

    We don't need reinforce learning, and we don't need a well crafted difficulty curve. The content that can be queued up is design to be simple, and fun for people who just play how they want. It is made for them.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Wavaryen View Post
    If this was like mythic plus in wow. Where you lose something for having a bad group.
    Only 1 in 5 people in M+ can lose anything. The loot reduction for a failed run has been long since removed. The only "loss" unique to M+ now is for the keyholder to not increase the level of their key. You still get the Valor. You still get the loot. You still get the rating, as long as you did even a fraction better than your last run (as rating is literally just a quantitative summary of your personal bests).

    The largest actual loss is just as present in XIV as in M+: time. You will have wasted time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavaryen View Post
    We don't need reinforce learning, and we don't need a well crafted difficulty curve.
    We don't "need" a good game, either. But alas, they're generally far more fun to play.
    (9)

  3. #3
    Player Wavaryen's Avatar
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    Teladi Bishop
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    Balmung
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    Fisher Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Only 1 in 5 people in M+ can lose anything. The loot reduction for a failed run has been long since removed. The only "loss" unique to M+ now is for the keyholder to not increase the level of their key. You still get the Valor. You still get the loot. You still get the rating, as long as you did even a fraction better than your last run (as rating is literally just a quantitative summary of your personal bests).

    The largest actual loss is just as present in XIV as in M+: time. You will have wasted time.



    We don't "need" a good game, either. But alas, they're generally far more fun to play.

    I mean this is a good game? Content for all players. You want to change content for people who enjoy playing it like it is. While having options for harder content. Sorry, but no. The developers agree as well. That is why it is top dog right now, because it does not listen to silly requests.


    The system they have in place is fine, what reasons does it need changing? When it has this huge of a player base and keeps growing because it caters to people who just play and the content is design to let them just play. What reasons does the developers have to listen to this feedback when clearly what they have is working.
    (1)
    Last edited by Wavaryen; 07-14-2021 at 07:03 PM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Wavaryen View Post
    people who enjoy playing it like it is.
    At the expense of those they leech off, of count at only an nth the value of their own interests, all because they can't be bothered to learn even the basics, you mean? That's literally the sole group under the scope here.
    (9)

  5. #5
    Player Wavaryen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    At the expense of those they leech off, of count at only an nth the value of their own interests, all because they can't be bothered to learn even the basics, you mean? That's literally the sole group under the scope here.

    It is not leeching because the content is so easy, that if we get a full group of people playing like them. They will still get content done.


    That is why the content is so good and why they are having fun. How is it leeching if they don't need you?
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player
    Krotoan's Avatar
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    Krotoan Argaviel
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    Sargatanas
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    Reaper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post

    Having the occasional hurdle by which to prompt or reinforce learning, and generally centralize at least a modicum of competency as an expected norm, does not amount to "enforcing how to play the game".
    Except it really does. You are making people play the game a certain way as opposed to now in which people can engage at will (even if that will is "I just wanna get past this") the main content of the game. Every choice the developers make seems to reinforce the vision of accessibility for all instead of restriction to "competency". Easy modes for required story instances, mechanics that allow one or more deaths and recovery in required content, gear progression that supplements skill with sheer numbers if the player "outlevels" where they are along with abundant XP to do so.

    And again this "modicum of competency" is present in likely 99% of the playerbase. So rather than say it's the same as making this accessible for people who cannot see colors or hear sound queues , I'd say it's not even a 100th as important for the game to be enjoyable to a majority. One creates inclusivity, the other gatekeeps for "skill".



    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    In any other game, even other MMOs, it'd be called "a well-crafted difficulty curve" -- precisely the way any game provides ramps and bridges to being able to enjoy said game more deeply or in novel ways. Only here do we seem so eager to mislabel such as oppressive or forceful.
    So you want to compare the current most popular MMO out there to other less successful MMO's and say we should change the way the game is because they're working so much better? Reducing the player pool respectively. Make the people who currently play and just get by learn or leave (and they're gonna leave, cause it's a game and they seem to be comfortable with minimal effort).

    One of the things that constantly drives me away from games in general is loss of progress or restriction of progress at "death". It's a really outdated "punishment" system from back when a game had to have setbacks and skill gates or it wouldn't last or sell well cause if you just beat it the first time you picked it up most people would never play it again and the developers couldn't add stuff on to it to keep people playing because you had already bought it and taken it home. It's crazy how ingrained the expectation is for that punishment to be there though, like we seem to all think it's part of what fun is.. when it's not for a great many people.

    People play games to have fun and the idea that they should be punished for being bad at games is pretty silly when you think about that.

    We have content that's challenging and you can engage that at will as well but you don't HAVE to to engage in the main thing FFXIV advertises which is it's story. I'm all for the "challenge me!" crowd to get their piece of the pie, but lets not make the cake eaters eat that pie as well, especially when , as I've discussed, they are such a minor problem.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krotoan View Post
    So you want to compare the current most popular MMO out there to other less successful MMO's and say we should change the way the game is because they're working so much better?
    Interesting strawman, but I'll admit to the low-hanging fruit there.

    In what you've quoted, I have not compared XIV to other MMOs, or even other games generally. I compared how we treat the concept of a difficulty curve and in-game situated learning. Anywhere else, its the basis for a good game. Here, it's as often treated as satanic.

    "The endgame experience have more going on than midgame" or "cumulative learning" or "gradually increasing complexity/difficulty" are not new or controversial concepts.

    Nor is it is new or controversial to want not to create systems of incentives that will split your playerbase in an increasingly irredeemable fashion, let alone towards some sort of poorly understood quasi-class warfare -- "casuals" vs. "hardcore" who nonetheless overlap, individual to individual, across every criteria] -- as we have here.

    Consider: How much of the game is actually presented attractively to a given player, be they the mythical Conny Casual, Eddie Elite, or anyone in between? What does the game do to draw in someone who might not be inherently interested in the combat aspects (which are still some 90% of the game's content, no matter how you cut it)? What does it do to actually let highly anxious people step over the hurdle to enter Extreme trials or Savage, if they want that level of depth, but want to be and feel prepared (besides yet again telling the community to make up the difference on their own)?

    Initially, there's little. HoN is a boon, but a small one, because it's neither directly situated nor does it do much to actually draw players' interests. You go if you have that interest. And if you've no such interest despite that its information would have been useful to you, the game, by readies the rut for you. Follow it to have access only to an increasingly narrow span of the game's combat content, replacing such with further social conflict.

    For the later gaps, though, there's nothing. You can see all the mechanics symbols likely to be repurposed, but unless the concepts and habits necessary for that later content is centered upon and drawn attention to, however unintrusively, it will click for some --for whom Savage will be presented about as attractively as its sum of actual mechanics, novelty, etc., can be to that individual-- and not for others -- for whom that content will not be given a remotely attractive view.

    So, yes, it does have much to do with inclusivity, in the same way that good pedagogical or instructional practices anywhere, even if not necessary for anyone and everyone, still benefit the given community, especially if it's often grouped as one.
    (8)