Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Shurrikhan]

It's not that people don't think really bad players exist. It's just we don't think these running at 5% people are as prevalent as those arguing for "standards" would have you think.

People with a given disability that needs relatively specific design aren't going to be all that common either, and yet many of the components or techniques which would address their difficulties are commonly useful to everyone.

The question should be less of "Is X population large enough to require changes?" and more, simply, "Would these provide benefit more than worth their cost?"

I really wouldn't compare accessibility considerations to enforcing how to play the game.

Having the occasional hurdle by which to prompt or reinforce learning, and generally centralize at least a modicum of competency as an expected norm, does not amount to "enforcing how to play the game".

In any other game, even other MMOs, it'd be called "a well-crafted difficulty curve" -- precisely the way any game provides ramps and bridges to being able to enjoy said game more deeply or in novel ways. Only here do we seem so eager to mislabel such as oppressive or forceful.

[Krotoan]

People with a given disability that needs relatively specific design aren't going to be all that common either, and yet many of the components or techniques which would address their difficulties are commonly useful to everyone.

I really wouldn't compare accessibility considerations to enforcing how to play the game since they're basically options so that people can even engage with the game at all AND are always a take it or leave it option, wheras what we're discussing here are ways to limit which people engage in the game.

[kaynide]

In any other game, even other MMOs, it'd be called "a well-crafted difficulty curve" -- precisely the way any game provides ramps and bridges to being able to enjoy said game more deeply or in novel ways. Only here do we seem so eager to mislabel such as oppressive or forceful.

Arguably they do have a difficulty curve. The first boss of any early ARR boss dungeon compared to ShB is quite different in difficulty or complexity. It might not be to a level you want it to be, but there certainly is a curve.

Then again, the devs have also intended for players to do savage and extreme content and a big part of the JP playerbase does just that, while the EU and NA servers only have a fraction of those numbers or even attempts

That is optional content not connected to the MSQ or general gameplay. The horrible players (5% maybe?) who are in question are either not playing these, being carried, or being vote-kicked. In the case of a carry, you have the option to vote kick or leave the party. At any rate, I can't believe you would encounter this at any regular rate unless your server is full of trolls.

Guess I'm an elitist for expecting people to know how to push more than 2-3 buttons.

That's not what is being discussed here (so I've been told). Most people playing are competent at the game, with like a C+ if we were grading. What you're talking about is a fraction of a fraction of the population that is largely trolls.

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Truth be told, I'm not sure this widespread problem of horrible players is even a real thing. I can count on my hand the number of times I've met a player in DF who was awful and refused to improve.. most have been very agreeable and open to suggestions.

Those that I did meet were absolutely trolling the DF and easily kicked.

(I play on JP server, full disclosure; where the clowns are usually the English speakers)

[Shurrikhan]

Arguably they do have a difficulty curve.

A. Well-crafted. Difficulty. Curve. That is the difference. Ours is more like a messy square root curve that suddenly jumps at the end.

Our problem is that our situated difficulties largely rely on now-defunct experiences, be that due to expansion-by-expansion obsolesce or pruning.

When were the habits useful for Savage last situated without repeated head-to-wall collisions in an ill-prepared attempt at Savage itself? When there was only one difficulty level, right about halfway between Savage and the later Normal mode. Where does one reach that now? Extreme trials, to some extent, but at a much greater stretch. The gap has widened.

At the same time, design changes have necessarily made any return to depth all the more daunting. When last were concerns and related skills like those of CC, focus targeting, kill order, kiting, or enmity-swaps outside of Provoke/Shirk alone actually situated in typical content? Early ARR.

By steadily reducing player means and agency -- the means, taken or not, by which we might approach content, giving tuning sufficient not to be overwhelmed by the simplest strats of run to gate, AoE all, repeat -- XIV has necessarily reduced the available points of interest in typical content and made the gap between typical content and more novel or involved content all the wider.

[kaynide]

A. Well-crafted. Difficulty. Curve.

Who says it isn't well crafted? I find it perfectly fine for what the game is trying to be, and for who the game is designed for. I've yet to really see huge spikes in difficulty outside of the obvious hardcore content, which is itself niche content.

[Shurrikhan]

Who says it isn't well crafted? I find it perfectly fine for what the game is trying to be, and for who the game is designed for. I've yet to really see huge spikes in difficulty outside of the obvious hardcore content, which is itself niche content.

"Except for the parts that don't work, it works fine."

That's... literally 25+% of an expansion's patch cycle contents you've excluded there.

Remember, at least in NA, even the easier Savage tiers are "obviously niche hardcore content". And there are plenty who don't even step foot among Extreme trials.

[kaynide]

"Except for the parts that don't work, it works fine."

That's... literally 25+% of an expansion's patch cycle contents you've excluded there.

Remember, at least in NA, even the easier Savage tiers are "obviously niche hardcore content". And there are plenty who don't even step foot among Extreme trials.

And if players don't want to engage in that 25%, isn't that fine? "Working as intended"?

Shouldn't you be glad that the devs even give 25% to content for stuff that (according to you) isn't even used by a large amount of players? If nothing else doesn't that say the devs are listening and creating content for a niche group of the player base?

...wouldn't that suggest that "hardcore players" are the exception and not the norm?

[Shurrikhan]

And if players don't want to engage in that 25%, isn't that fine? "Working as intended"?

Shouldn't you be glad that the devs even give 25% to content for stuff that (according to you) isn't even used by a large amount of players? If nothing else doesn't that say the devs are listening and creating content for a niche group of the player base?

...wouldn't that suggest that "hardcore players" are the exception and not the norm?

(Why the assumption that I'm trying, above all, to defend "hardcore" content at the expense of non-hardcore players, here? I'm not a hardcore player, myself. Heck, this character has barely touched Savage this whole expansion.)

Across particular (but fairly wide) threshold, casual content can still be interesting to hardcore players, provided there's enough "stuff", gameplay-wise (moment to moment decisions, pacing, awareness, etc.) to be done in said content. The problem is those things won't actually appear as mechanics if there's no place in which they feel intended or pertinent. Hence hardcore content. It is the logical capitalization on the "stuff" which can fill out combat content, which is still 90% of the game. Even if you do not take part in it, it sets certain end-goals and thereby makes that "stuff" of combat meaningful.

Maybe there are other routes they could take to capstone the various mechanics and intricacies available to combat -- I sure as heck like more than just depleting a cylinder's HP value to 0 while dancing about a perfectly rectangular or circular room -- but a capstone will remain largely necessary.

But then that begs the question: why the heck wouldn't we want to facilitate the paths up to that content so that player could benefit directly from them as well? It's not a question of "hardcore" or "casual" so much as simply investment and payoff. You can't let go of the capstone span of content without the substance beneath it falling apart for lack of pertinence, but the capstone span of content isn't itself made accessible (by bringing players up rather than pulling it down)... that's a huge waste.

[Rinhi]

That's not what is being discussed here (so I've been told). Most people playing are competent at the game, with like a C+ if we were grading. What you're talking about is a fraction of a fraction of the population that is largely trolls.


Truth be told, I'm not sure this widespread problem of horrible players is even a real thing. I can count on my hand the number of times I've met a player in DF who was awful and refused to improve.. most have been very agreeable and open to suggestions.

Those that I did meet were absolutely trolling the DF and easily kicked.

(I play on JP server, full disclosure; where the clowns are usually the English speakers)

the point of this thread was players not knowing how to play at level 80 in level 80 content, so it's not just 5% - at least on NA servers

NA servers are just different and being on JP servers, where the players have a completely different culture than the western ones, so I think it's not surprising that you barely run into those players compared to others playing on NA or even EU

I run into at least 2-3 every week that react negatively to even the tiniest bit of advice and who'd rather ruin the whole run because they behave like a spoiled child than continue to the dungeon or trial - for example, just yesterday I had an AST in sohr khai who stopped healing me when I nicely asked them to use malefic and gravity when they didn't have to heal me - and that casters should ABC if possible
90% of their time in the dungeon was then spent doing nothing but staring at enemies until the fight against hraesvalgr, where they started healing me again (though it wasn't needed cus PLD lol)

[kaynide]

NA servers are just different and being on JP servers, where the players have a completely different culture than the western ones, so I think it's not surprising that you barely run into those players compared to others playing on NA or even EU

That's a fair point I guess- I don't know about servers outside JP, so it's fair to say my opinions are only applicable to what I know. I don't know why you put up with the AST tho, I'da dropped him like a bad hat.

No. Since the Devs give me 120 mins to clear a dungeon, I could take the entire 120 mins by your logic ; )

Sorry, what are you talking about?

I mean if you want to stand around for 120 min in CT and have enough people in your party to force everyone else to wait, I'd just drop party?