Please implement something to teach players how to play

[DPZ2]

Most other MMOs solve this very simply, you get flamed, then you get kicked, then you get flamed some more. Since this obviously isn't a thing in this game due to it's ToS, and not exactly the most desirable solution either, we need other solutions that do not include other players constantly insulting you and kicking you from their parties until you learn.

So, the answer is "no, there are none".

Thank you.

Social habits in other games are not relevant.

[SannaR]

If you find content taking longer than usual so intolerable then just leave the group. You're not going to get a 60 minute dungeon unless a) you're playing with bots 2) something went seriously wrong and even then I doubt a dungeon could take so long regardless. None of you are obligated to "carry" people...?

It's not about speed, though. Yes, doing more dps does lead to faster runs. It's about wishing people didn't feel It's always ok to be the tank I got while qued up for all of Gordias normal for my 180 for the current relics. There would just stand there and do nothing. Now yes that's a rare case, but many people would say that's fine you still cleared why should it matter? Or times when you get a group that can't clear the various dps checks in the game and you're the only one dead for the entire duration of said check. A lot of people are fine with slower runs if that's the skill level of the tank or healer or both. What people aren't fine with is the people who are like the sch back during HW I got during Stone Vigil that hadn't done their job quest so they didn't have leaches. Which lead to people dying cause they couldn't remove the debuffs nor heal good enough to make the debuffs matter. Yes they and their dps BF were kicked.

Yet there's plenty of people who see that as acceptable play. Part of the reason why it's seen as acceptable is because no one wants to speak up either because it's not really worth it to correct things that are probably minor mistakes that only those who know the role see. The other is they don't want to chance getting belittled by someone for giving advice or asking them why do they not do X or Y.

Are those time most likely far and few in-between? Sure, they could be. There also people who just want to get in do the things and get out as quickly as they can. It's why atm people kick others in Hell's Lid due to people spamming it for their relics. Why I'm sure it probably happened back when ARF used to be the thing to run.

[Shalan]

Again, I ask:

Please give me the names of other MMOs with which you are familiar who do this already.

I suspect the answer will be, as before, silence.

You can ask for 'mandatory', but unless you can show evidence that this is being done somewhere else (and, may I add, successfully) you're just talking through your own frustrations with players who are perhaps not as good at playing games as you are.

Blade and Soul did it. As part of the story, the game forced you into instances/scenarios where you were required to complete certain combos/learn various mechanics in order to progress. If you couldn't do them, you couldn't continue the story. They taught you class specific combos, how abilities interact with one another, different status effects, etc.
If you couldn't complete the mechanic/combo as directed Hajoon would chastise you and revive your target and you would have to keep at it until you could manage your task.

It taught at least the basics of the game and your individual class, and I think the game as a whole was better for it.

[Absurdity]

So, the answer is "no, there are none".

Thank you.

Social habits in other games are not relevant.

Well yeah, other MMOs do not need to do this because the problem is already getting solved by the playerbase with peer pressure. But it's certainly not an ideal solution to tell new players to "git gud" before proceeding to kick them from content until they either git gud or quit the game.

[strawberrycake]

Again, I ask:

Please give me the names of other MMOs with which you are familiar who do this already.

I suspect the answer will be, as before, silence.

You can ask for 'mandatory', but unless you can show evidence that this is being done somewhere else (and, may I add, successfully) you're just talking through your own frustrations with players who are perhaps not as good at playing games as you are.

WoW does ironically enough, and say what you want, but As a long time WoW player it was something consistently asked for, for a while. It works, people understand the basics more, and its easier for me to help them understand content more. This is my experience within that game at least and still is now as I lvl alts from scratch and new players seem to have a grasp on the dungeons we run. Note WoWs dungrons require a bit more over all from their players in terms of dungeons. Not a jab at 14, but a fact.

Edit: The system also existed for players who boosted character for the longest time. You had to do a mandatory tutorial so you can understand what a class did, why it did what it did, and how it applied to the content you did it in before you even got released into the world. It did this for each of WoWs specialzations, which currently functions as sperate classes unto themselves. FF can definiately do it in my opinion.

Edit 2: Also Idm players not being that good at the game or as good as me, I'm nothing special. But again, this system puts more of the onus into the hand of lazy players who brute force the game hoping others adjust. With a mandatory system, systems that BnS and WoW have done successfully, would go a long way in simply making sure you want to play the game and not ruin another persons experience simply because they dont care. I would rather have a system tell them knowing your role is mandatory and important so it no longer falls into a grey area of the ToS when a players speaks on the matter.

The MOMENT the game tells you to play your role properly, the moment a system is enforcing that, you no longer have as many people going against the grain and those that to can no longer be defended for doing less then the bare minimum, when the game gives you all the information and basics needed to play properly. If me saying it to people is an issue, I'd rather the game say it for itself and make it the first thing players see when they open the game.

[Absurdity]

WoW does ironically enough, and say what you want, but As a long time WoW player it was something consistently asked for, for a while. It works, people understand the basics more, and its easier for me to help them understand content more. This is my experience within that game at least and still is now as I lvl alts from scratch and new players seem to have a grasp on the dungeons we run. Note WoWs dungrons require a bit more over all from their players in terms of dungeons. Not a jab at 14, but a fact.

Edit: The system also existed for players who boosted character for the longest time. You had to do a mandatory tutorial so you can understand what a class did, why it did what it did, and how it applied to the content you did it in before you even got released into the world. It did this for each of WoWs specialzations, which currently functions as sperate classes unto themselves. FF can definiately do it in my opinion.

I completely forgot about this, there we have an example. Granted WoW's classes are a lot easier to explain imo. Since they are mostly proc based pressing random buttons in WoW already does a decent amount of damage compared to XIV where just pressing random buttons is a terrible idea on most jobs.
Is it impossible to do that with a tutorial? Absolutely not, it just requires a slightly longer explanation.

[strawberrycake]

I completely forgot about this, there we have an example. Granted WoW's classes are a lot easier to explain imo. Since they are mostly proc based pressing random buttons in WoW already does a decent amount of damage compared to XIV where just pressing random buttons is a terrible idea on most jobs.

Yeah, its a heavier focus on its priority system, but in 14 given the current scaling, you dont even have to do your rotation properly, just dont die and all content outside EX, Savage, and Ultimate falls over evntually xD

[Absurdity]

Yeah, its a heavier focus on its priority system, but in 14 given the current scaling, you dont even have to do your rotation properly, just dont die and all content outside EX, Savage, and Ultimate falls over evntually xD

Yeah but that is basically the entire point of this thread. Sure, you can eventually get through a dungeon by just spamming uncombod abilities but it means the rest of the party has to make up for you doing 1/6th of the damage you would be doing if you pressed them in even remotely the correct order.

[OranKells]

The you don't pay my sub crowd is going hard today. Imagine being consciously, obstinately, sub par player because you don't "like" a skill.
Imagine if Lebron said he didn't like shooting 3 pointers anymore.
You think the Lakers wouldn't either bench or replace him immediately?

Look its a pick up group of randomly assembled players of varying skill levels for daily faceroll content. Not of it is super serious, expectations are low but there is a bare minimum you should be able to do. If you are not getting along with the group and are failing to meet the low expectations of the duty finder then expect to be kicked.
Again, not asking for some raid master tier dps but simply to pull your weight in a dungeon. 90% of the time that's understanding your basic rotations and the ins and outs of your job. These broadly speaking are not matters of opinion. Most rotations are pretty tight, combo potencies and tooltips are pretty well spelled out for you and the math speaks for itself.

I am sympathetic to those who are inexperienced and willing to learn. Everyone has been new once and some job rotations can be complex to grasp at first...

However what is being argued now is someone who simply ... disagrees? ... with .. that? I shouldn't be expected to understand what my job is or does?? I'm really struggling to understand the "I play my way" logic here.

If you you don't understand how to use a certain skill your job has then experiment with it or ask someone or do a little googling.
If you don't like certain skills a job has, play another job. don't just refuse to play your class properly. You're ruining it for the rest of the party. Think about the people you're playing with.

I guess that's the problem here. I don't know how to get you to care about other people.

[Xtrasweettea]

Again, I ask:

Please give me the names of other MMOs with which you are familiar who do this already.

I suspect the answer will be, as before, silence.

You can ask for 'mandatory', but unless you can show evidence that this is being done somewhere else (and, may I add, successfully) you're just talking through your own frustrations with players who are perhaps not as good at playing games as you are.

FFXI has such a thing, though only a test through of your skills and knowledge through "Limit Breaks." These start at level 50.

The most infamous Limit Break was the Maat fight.

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shattering_Stars

You had no help and a short time window to defeat him. You had to know your job almost completely inside and out. This includes how and when to gear swap, which items to use, which food affects were best for the fight, which consumables you needed to use, etc.

Unlike what the wiki states now, back in the day, you only got one fight per Testimony. If you lost, you had to farm another one. Which took hours.

This Limit Break was brutal as some jobs had it way easier than others to beat. RDM is hands down the most difficult one due to the number of enhancing and enfeebling spells Maat has. I also witnessed my roommate do the Ranger one and that is complete feast or famine.

If you couldn't beat Maat, you couldn't do endgame, since you would never be able to go above level 70.