Please implement something to teach players how to play

[TaleraRistain]

There's a super easy way to not have to deal with those people. Don't let the game randomly match you. Get out there, make friends with like-minded folks, and go on your merry way.

Is that saying that you can't have personal expectations? No. I have plenty of folks I group with who make me groan.

But if you aren't going to lift a finger to control the environment you game in and instead just lazily let the game choose for you, then you should temper those expectations and be understanding that others may not have the same viewpoint. If it's that horrendous, then just leave. Otherwise, see if you can make the experience positive and lead by example. Will you have to carry sometimes? Yep. But that's the cover charge for putting your fate in the hands of a random matching system.

[Kaurhz]

Hard walls to progress, where properly situated, are not necessarily a bad thing.

Done well, they reveal many of the points of potential personal progress (learning opportunities) certain members simply foisted onto others instead of engaging with, thereby revealing exactly how to dismantle that wall.

I'd rather have dungeon progress stagnated briefly for what would become increasingly the rare exception among players than have all dungeon design creativity permanently stagnated by being limited to the lowest denominator among them.

Like I said the problem here is that if someone has not learned their basic class, or functionality by Level 66, for example. Then they aren't going to magically learn this within that dungeon. In a very short frame, unless these checks are so drastically under-tuned. - It goes back to the whole process of you can't force someone to learn. If they haven't shown that willingness after a metric tonne of levels, then a mentality change isn't going to happen. More often than not you're dealing with the lack of willingness to learn than you are dealing with someone who just generally misunderstands, especially in the later levels.

I'm not spending my time in a dungeon waiting for someone to potentially be indoctrinated into a new line of thinking if they haven't already adopted said thinking prior. Hence why I said, or at least implied such things belong in solo instances where it has no bearing on people that respect their own time.

Creating the opportunity is one thing, having people seize or take advantage of is entirely separate.

[SniperCT]

This entire thread reeks of the elitism I thought we were supposed to be above.

Also wtf groups have you people been getting, I've almost never run into players who weren't playing decently (or were unwilling to accept some advice when they were clearly new and learning) and I've been mainlining leveling dungeon roulettes for weeks. My negative experiences have been mostly from mentors but that's to be expected lol

[Shurrikhan]

Like I said the problem here is that if someone has not learned their basic class, or functionality by Level 66, for example. Then they aren't going to magically learn this within that dungeon. In a very short frame, unless these checks are so drastically under-tuned. - It goes back to the whole process of you can't force someone to learn. If they haven't shown that willingness after a metric tonne of levels, then a mentality change isn't going to happen. More often than not you're dealing with the lack of willingness to learn than you are dealing with someone who just generally misunderstands, especially in the later levels.

Consider what goes into that willingness, though.

Or, consider it from the opposite end: What point is there in expending that effort? If I have ostensibly nothing to gain from doing so (assuming, even, the path were clear -- which it usually is not), and the effort itself is not enjoyable... why would I bother?

That's the problem the devs have increasingly set for themselves. They've diminished the rewards, obfuscated the path, and made the early-level combat experience increasingly a slog.

If they want the community to behave differently, then they should give them contexts that warrant different behaviors.

Yes, there is by now a huge sense of inertia, or generalized expectations, they'd have to push back against, but once they get the boulder rolling to turn those expectations around, the community cannot help but snowball the changes the devs will have impelled.

[technole]

That's literally because of the influx and good players unsubbing temporarily.

Yep, it's a lul period in the game now where all content has been out for awhile, and nothing new until expansion. A good chunk of better players don't spend much time or any at all. Why even do roulettes when we have been best-in-slot for months because of savage? Anyone doing that stuff now is likely filling whatever is left on capping alt jobs, newer, or the like.

There will be a dramatic difference in overall player performance during expansion early access, it's always like this.

[Kes13a]

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

no. then you get people just speed running things. doesnt make them any better. you get people angry because someone might want to read things or watch a cutscene... so.. no, not a good idea

[technole]

no. then you get people just speed running things. doesnt make them any better. you get people angry because someone might want to read things or watch a cutscene... so.. no, not a good idea

There is a time bonus for clearing Dalriada first boss pretty quickly, the 3rd chest with 60 coins.

[Vahlnir]

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment. Getting better is gradual and not immediate progress so random groups on DF will only end up being at each other's throats if this has any bearing on group progress, looting or achievements.

Yep, exactly. This is not the solution.

[Kaurhz]

Consider what goes into that willingness, though.

Or, consider it from the opposite end: What point is there in expending that effort? If I have ostensibly nothing to gain from doing so (assuming, even, the path were clear -- which it usually is not), and the effort itself is not enjoyable... why would I bother?

That's the problem the devs have increasingly set for themselves. They've diminished the rewards, obfuscated the path, and made the early-level combat experience increasingly a slog.

If they want the community to behave differently, then they should give them contexts that warrant different behaviors.

Yes, there is by now a huge sense of inertia, or generalized expectations, they'd have to push back against, but once they get the boulder rolling to turn those expectations around, the community cannot help but snowball the changes the devs will have impelled.

Again, incorporate or encourage this process of learning into the solo duties through the creative use of mechanics or systems that help to encourage the process of learning. It should be something that has no bearing on other people, especially if it is something that seemingly does potentially punish other players.

If we want to look into a direction that involves encouraging learning, whilst still incorporating them into the dungeon then a bonus exp/tome checkpoints could be included to help encourage this. E.g. you hit the goal of doing x, y, or z then you get a checkmark that provides bonus exp or tomestones. This could be anything from the execution of an ability a certain amount of time, or a limitation therein. Then you have the point of expanding that effort from a personal perspective without necessarily involving mechanics that seemingly punish players for bad play, but rather rewarding people for good play.

My issue with the suggested list is it wasn't rewarding players for good play, you were effectively punishing them within the duty itself for not performing up to a baseline.

I'm all for a new context that encourages different behavior, but forcing this process, or punishing for not meeting this behavior baseline won't sit well with players. EXP multipliers to individual bosses for correct, proper, or efficient execution of mechanics, be it fight or job mechanics would be a great way to start.

I don't want to have to worry about that healer potentially killing themselves or the tank, just because someone decided that adding a stacking mechanic to GCD heals was a great way to try and force players into something. Especially when more often than not more damage on the bosses will translate to faster kills, which means the boss does fewer mechanics and overall a smaller window for mistakes. So this rides as much on the DPS playing their job correctly in addition to the tank, yet someone wanted to propose the bizarre idea for potentially punishing the healer, or potentially making their life even more difficult for trying to compensate?

[TaleraRistain]

You are 100% correct that I could just 4 man it, or however man it, and just avoid the problem.

However, there just seems to be a lot of apologists for bad players... Its not that they are permanently bad either, they just don't attempt to improve because they aren't forced to by the game...

I don't really know how to put it, but like why are people level 80, but play their kit like they have moves up to level 10 only. (Arbitrary example level) I think thats a problem.

I'm a bit like SniperCT here and wondering where all these horrible players are. I almost exclusively PuG since my FC is tiny and my friends take breaks, and in 7 years of playing I just don't have that many stories about THOSE players. Seen plenty who may have been struggling for one reason or another. Helped where I could, muddled through where I couldn't.

You also have to consider content. MSQ is something the entire spectrum of playstyles need to go through. So, yep, it's going to be pretty faceroll and there are a lot of folks in the game who never step past that level of content that you may run into. Can either approach it with a negative attitude and be miserable or try to find something positive or fun in it.