Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Shurrikhan]

Exactly this, min.ilvl requirements exist by the devs to quantify "okay" performance

Gear =/= performance.

Gear sets a theoretical maximum performance, but no minimum.

[Ralph2449]

Gear =/= performance.

Gear sets a theoretical maximum performance, but no minimum.

Well yeah, they dont assume people will afk and have zero performance because that would be absurd, just as absurd as elitist repeatedly saying they are seeing people that never improve and dps 1/10th of dps of their job's ability as if they literally believe the person is there pressing 1 button every 8 seconds.

The devs expect that an average person with that gear level and a very average performance is enough, and that average performance is pretty low considering the max performance a job can bring, and more often than not there's more than a few people playing above that average performance which is why content can be beaten with multiple dead players.

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

[Yeol]

How do you quantify what is "okay" performance?

If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

[Endariel]

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

Sounds like for you, an elitist is a literally a person that presses more than 1 button (well, 2 if count 'w')

[Kaylal]

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.

I'm playing a dragoon and loving the at-level skills; leaping into combat, etc. and I finally got my AoE skill. I try to use all the skills as appropriately as I can and love executing combos (and boosting damage on combo3 when I can), but there's nothing to tell me just how well I'm doing. I hit a FATE with a solo opponent, the big roc in Coerthas Central Highlands yesterday. I was lvl 42, it might have been at + difficulty as well, plus I didn't drink my healing potion in time so I died (everything was on CD)...but it was so close that my beginning level Chocobo was able to finish it off and I got the reward. So I think I'm doing OK but that doesn't give me the confidence to go into a dungeon with other people!

I don't completely object to occasional interactions with other players. There's nothing more depressing that running around a major city when there are no other players doing the same thing. I absolutely appreciate other people being around; I just don't necessarily want to interact with them.

WoW has the concept of world bosses popping up what a random collection of 40 players gang up on it and those are mad fun. FFXIV has FATES, sort-of similar world quests, which I don't mind either. None of those are laden with the same expectations about "doing your job and doing it right" as dungeons are, where you spend more than a few minutes with a bunch of other people.

And that's why as a level 43 Dragoon I'm still stuck at Toto-Rak! I hasten to add that's no-one's fault except mine. What I'm hoping to do is demonstrate that sometimes it's not about the level of competence of the player, its about the comfort level and a person's own perception of their competence. Because there's no real way to see how well you're doing. And I don't have a clue how you could do that in-game without causing all sorts of other issues about expected performance from those other "elitist" players. Because those do exist...and I'm very much afraid I'm going to get one or two whenever I have to do group content.

I've rambled enough; I'll shut up now.

[Jadedsins]

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.
.

It was a good read, and really I can understand how you feel, but I just stop caring what other people think and how they feel when it comes to "time wasted" or failing in a group. A game is just that, and some times things are hard for people, and that is ok also. Grouping is just a bunch of people using each other for rewards and progression.




If people really want players to play better. Let Trusts be duoed and people who want to teach and learn. Can use dungeons as a tool with npcs to slowly teach players at the pace they want to go at.


Problem fix. No need to change content, no need to force players who don't want to learn to learn, and the people who do want to learn. Can use a system we already have.

[Shurrikhan]

The devs expect that an average person with that gear level and a very average performance is enough, and that average performance is pretty low considering the max performance a job can bring, and more often than not there's more than a few people playing above that average performance which is why content can be beaten with multiple dead players.

Inevitably, half of all players will fall below "average", as any average is the center-point of that population. In practice, "average" is of course a span, but even so there are some who will fall many standard deviations below what would be considered "average".

Divide it up by whatever means you like -- mechanics engaged in, throughput-per-gear-level produced, or even effective efforts spent, whatever you wish -- and there will still be people, especially here, who fall well below "average" even its definition were stretched to include 75% of the game's population.

The players giving rise to this thread's topics are not the average. They are those who (outside of the very rare troll or griefer) have not learned how, or have not been enticed to engage in, combat content to the extent of an "average" player.

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

No, they haven't. An almost entirely irrelevant content-ordering prerequisite, item level, has been defined -- and nothing else.

You admitted just above that gear alone will not equate to performance. Just prior to that you complained about players asking for more gear when they cannot secure other means of ensuring performance (e.g., skill or prior experience). You should already know that the base gear requirements have little to nothing to do with what's being requested to help and/or incentivize players to bridge their performance gaps.

Outside of intersections between in-game cultures of responsibility and those of least resistance alone, whether it be in WoW, B&S, BDO, GW2, or anywhere else, those setting extreme gear requirements are typically those who don't want to deal with the full course of a given piece of content -- not the "elitists" who actually enjoy those combat systems -- and would prefer to exclude players in favor of cheesing mechanics than actually engage with that content however they may.

You see this most often in progression systems that have progression with finely-increasing gear levels without finely-increasing difficulty, as one can simply grind out upgrade after upgrade, taking 3 months via gear to do what skill did in the first week of a given tier, and expect others to grind similarly all while despising the idea of actually learning one's rotations, CD syncs, and/or skill priorities, etc.

And let's consider what we've actually seen here so far...

Who here have been encouraging that we let players experiment, learn, and generally get comfortable with what the game has to offer, wipes or no? Those you would call "elitists".

Who here have been asking for improved learning tools and ways to present the combat more attractively to players? Those you would call "elitists".

Who here have at all asked for content to be less hinged, in terms of a pool of mechanics and design possibilities, around Savage alone? Those you would call "elitists".

At this point, if one isn't jumping in place swearing that everything about the game itself is already perfect (except, perhaps, there are people who don't enjoy carrying you or that Extreme content or harder should be removed) or even entertains the thought that there are ways the game could better situate or utilize its combat, are they, too, "elitists"?

We've got those looking at how things could be improved -- some starting with too high a bar and being talked down from it, others parsing out the best criteria, parameters, and definitions of the problem perceived first, but each nonetheless interested in making things better for the average player. Then we've got what amounts to slander and demands to cease communication. And somehow the first group is the toxic one?

[Tyssyn]

I don't disagree that it would be nice if there was some way to have in game tutorials to help people learn their rotations better or have more tools to help improve their playing. However, what would it be? How much dev time/resources/money would it take to implement something? What are we as players willing to give up to have this whatever implemented? Would it get enough use to be worth the time and resources spent on it?

Some sort of parser could be nice, but it does come with some pretty big issues. I personally miss having a parser, for my own information, yes. But I have seen the downside to them in WoW, seen people bully others over their performance, and Yoshi has stated he does NOT want that in FFXIV, and I can't blame him.

No matter what might get implemented, there will STILL be plenty of people who won't use it, because they literally don't care about how well they perform as long as they can do the things they want to do in game. The dungeon trolls who delight in doing little to nothing because they know it irritates the people they are playing with, the people who just wanna smack some buttons and get on with the story - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. The people who do want to learn, want to improve - they ask here, ask in game, look things up themselves. SO why invest time and resources into something that won't really fix these issues?

[Endariel]

No matter what might get implemented, there will STILL be plenty of people who won't use it, because they literally don't care about how well they perform as long as they can do the things they want to do in game.

MSQ gate, simple as that. We already had a few, like step of faith and shinryu. Alas both of them were nerfed after a massive outcry.

[kaynide]

But you played through the game right? Like most people?

It’s a fair point; job quests should absolutely tell you exactly what your basic loadout does and how to use it, or there should be in the play guide a very specific “these are your base rotations, here is what you do with them (positionals, etc), and here are abilities meant to be woven between gcd”

I unlocked Rdm, promptly forgot about it for a long while then revisited it months later (obviously forgetting whatever lv 50 quest was involved). I was probably 3-4 dungeons into it when I even realized the core duel cast mechanic.

While the play guide does help a lot in this regard, it is always good to have a live-fire demo, to practice. (And to be fair, we could do this at the stone/sky/whatever training dummies.)