Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Ralph2449]

Gear =/= performance.

Gear sets a theoretical maximum performance, but no minimum.

Well yeah, they dont assume people will afk and have zero performance because that would be absurd, just as absurd as elitist repeatedly saying they are seeing people that never improve and dps 1/10th of dps of their job's ability as if they literally believe the person is there pressing 1 button every 8 seconds.

The devs expect that an average person with that gear level and a very average performance is enough, and that average performance is pretty low considering the max performance a job can bring, and more often than not there's more than a few people playing above that average performance which is why content can be beaten with multiple dead players.

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

[Endariel]

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

[Shurrikhan]

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

But why avoid a useful, more hands-on learning tool? There is nothing toxic about a dps meter that would not also be "toxic" about literally any other way by which someone might learn they or another are not performing as well as the average party member.

It's an underlying, preexistent conflict that is simply framed in a more conveniently analyzable way. Previously, having no information, you would simply disband and roll the dice on the next party if unable to remotely progress against a dps check. With parsers, you can look at when and for whom throughput is bogging, and address that. That's it. [A] had no direct means of recourse. [B] does. But I guess so long as A is silent and B the improvements B allows for may require talking to people, B must be toxic, right?

It's like insisting that DVDs were inherently criminal because they were the first medium on which you heard of bootleg copies being made. Had any other means, such as a x/5 stars performance rating, been our first definitive/quantifiable/analyzable exposure to unprepared or unengaged players, that would be getting the bad reputation instead (albeit pretty much only here in XIV, where basic etiquette and responsibility can be treated as oppression). Parsers are a merely an information tool. Yes, that information can be increasingly or decreasingly relevant depending on how well its framing of information fits what is intended of the game (I'd argue ACT is painfully basic/lackluster in that regard), but an information tool cannot itself create the problem it quantifies for players' analysis; it can only describe it.

[DPZ2]

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

"Screenshots, or you're lying." [Typical response to PF request that says 'Only 4-5 stars need apply' ... oh, wait, Yoshi P has already said that's what they want to avoid.]

[Shurrikhan]

"Screenshots, or you're lying." [Typical response to PF request that says 'Only 4-5 stars need apply' ... oh, wait, Yoshi P has already said that's what they want to avoid.]

Still beats inflated gear requirements or near-immediate disbands to make up for or reroll on the "1-star" players in your example there.

We've gone from "Do you have this thing (ilvl, prior achievements) that might point out likely performance in the content you've signed up for" to "Did you do quite well in the version of this fight one difficulty lower?"

The horror. Whatever are the players who made up for meritocratic disadvantages with gear or enough re-parties alone to do to keep their relative prestige? Players with specific skill and preparation might be able to skip that BS now. Terrible. Just terrible.

[Yeol]

How do you quantify what is "okay" performance?

If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

[Jojoya]

If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

How do you know they're performing at 15-20 compared to the entirety of the player base?

If you're making that assumption off what gets uploaded to FFLogs, you're not getting a true sample of performance from the player base in general let alone a complete report of all player performance. All you're seeing is what someone bothered to upload. Considering the logs are mainly relevant to the high end raiding community, the majority of the community aren't going to be recorded there because they're not doing high end content or they're doing it casually in pugs where there's unlikely to be anyone recording. Those 15-20 players might actually be 60-70 players if that data was getting collected from everyone.

I get that the thread was intended to address what some players perceive as a problem. Go back to my original response on the first page of the thread:

You can't teach someone who's not interested in learning. You can't get someone to put in effort when they feel the content is beneath them.

Those who are willing to learn and put in effort are doing it already.

You also don't know much about people if you think everyone is able to understand what they're supposed to do just from reading tooltips. Not everyone has critical thinking skills and yet the game is here for anyone to enjoy regardless of what their skill level is. There's a reason so many players ask for guides - they need someone else to figure things out and explain it in language they understand.

There are a lot of players that won't even ask for a guide. Why? Because becoming a better player isn't necessary for them to enjoy the game. Their enjoyment is coming from sources other than performance.

The game is here for everyone to enjoy regardless of their skill level. SE places no burden on anyone to "git gud". They've even gone as far as adding the easy and very easy modes to solo duties so no one will be blocked from MSQ progress. If you're running into someone in EX/Savage/Ultimate who can't cut it, by all means remove them from the group. Maybe if they get removed often enough, they finally have the motivation to become a better player.

But it's not something that can be forced on players.

[SannaR]

The game is here for everyone to enjoy regardless of their skill level. SE places no burden on anyone to "git gud". They've even gone as far as adding the easy and very easy modes to solo duties so no one will be blocked from MSQ progress. If you're running into someone in EX/Savage/Ultimate who can't cut it, by all means remove them from the group. Maybe if they get removed often enough, they finally have the motivation to become a better player.

But it's not something that can be forced on players.

How do you know though if you kicked the right person or enough of those that are causing the problem? You can't know those things unless you have a tool that tells you that information. Not that this is about parsers. Part of the problem with the overall skill level of the player base is the lack of situational awareness. I just watched a video of a guy who was getting hit in normal O8 to things that were coming from off their screen due to how their camera was angled. They got lucky with the first few due to just happening to be on the correct side. Then during a phase where you had to dodge the non question marked aoes, people with aoe markers they got hit by one of the attacks that are based off of what the statue was preparing and never understood why/how they took damage just that they did. Not until near the end of the fight did they swivel their camera and see a question mark on the orb the statue held and they went oh I should do what that is asking of me, but still didn't have it dawn on them that some of the attack clues were coming from off screen.

Not to say tunnel vision isn't a thing or doesn't happen to everyone, but there are many who don't use the contextual clues around them. Heck there are plenty who don't even notice quick enough that something bad to the party is happening and it's their job to fix that or how to fix that. It's how you get dps or healers dead due to tanks not picking up an add they're supposed to get or that the other tank died. Or if the tank during the first boss in Quarn dies that depending on what dps you have one of you is going to need to either start kiting the boss around or actually know how your skills work so you can be the temporary punching bag until hopefully the tank can take control again.

The game doesn't teach you this and I'm not sure how other players are to teach that. For skill atm the only way you can know you're "ok" is defeating an Stone Sea Sky dummy. Which only lets you know you either have good gear, enough knowledge of your class (for dps mostly) or a little bit of both if you clear it. If you fail and gear isn't the problem how are people to know how they can get better without the need for outside resources? The hall of the novice only teaches you some things and even in on of the dps segments teaches you to only attack the target the tank is attacking which punishes anyone who might know better tactics.

Even the tank one only teaches you to make sure you have hate on everything which back when this was first implemented meant defensive tank stance on, aoe a few times and then break up your enmity combo on the group of mob while switching to your dps stance. Nothing in the game teaches you about the harder things the game throws at you and reading tool tips only get you so far.

[Kaylal]

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.

I'm playing a dragoon and loving the at-level skills; leaping into combat, etc. and I finally got my AoE skill. I try to use all the skills as appropriately as I can and love executing combos (and boosting damage on combo3 when I can), but there's nothing to tell me just how well I'm doing. I hit a FATE with a solo opponent, the big roc in Coerthas Central Highlands yesterday. I was lvl 42, it might have been at + difficulty as well, plus I didn't drink my healing potion in time so I died (everything was on CD)...but it was so close that my beginning level Chocobo was able to finish it off and I got the reward. So I think I'm doing OK but that doesn't give me the confidence to go into a dungeon with other people!

I don't completely object to occasional interactions with other players. There's nothing more depressing that running around a major city when there are no other players doing the same thing. I absolutely appreciate other people being around; I just don't necessarily want to interact with them.

WoW has the concept of world bosses popping up what a random collection of 40 players gang up on it and those are mad fun. FFXIV has FATES, sort-of similar world quests, which I don't mind either. None of those are laden with the same expectations about "doing your job and doing it right" as dungeons are, where you spend more than a few minutes with a bunch of other people.

And that's why as a level 43 Dragoon I'm still stuck at Toto-Rak! I hasten to add that's no-one's fault except mine. What I'm hoping to do is demonstrate that sometimes it's not about the level of competence of the player, its about the comfort level and a person's own perception of their competence. Because there's no real way to see how well you're doing. And I don't have a clue how you could do that in-game without causing all sorts of other issues about expected performance from those other "elitist" players. Because those do exist...and I'm very much afraid I'm going to get one or two whenever I have to do group content.

I've rambled enough; I'll shut up now.

[Jadedsins]

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.
.

It was a good read, and really I can understand how you feel, but I just stop caring what other people think and how they feel when it comes to "time wasted" or failing in a group. A game is just that, and some times things are hard for people, and that is ok also. Grouping is just a bunch of people using each other for rewards and progression.




If people really want players to play better. Let Trusts be duoed and people who want to teach and learn. Can use dungeons as a tool with npcs to slowly teach players at the pace they want to go at.


Problem fix. No need to change content, no need to force players who don't want to learn to learn, and the people who do want to learn. Can use a system we already have.