Please implement something to teach players how to play

[Shurrikhan]

To the above, is the solution just to make the game more challenging then?

Honestly, yes.

The only real way to ensure the greatest coverage of learning is for said learning to seem inseparable from the game.

That's not an easy thing to follow up on, though. It requires well-crafted difficulty curves through careful situating of contexts and related actions, and it requires that those situations be engaging.

That said, the underlying idea to that, too, is rather simple: if you want people to learn your game, it needs to be a good game (and not just by its end).

[Jin-]

To the above, is the solution just to make the game more challenging then?

I had already reached the same conclusion before I posted; its up to people to have a want to get better for them to get better.

I really don't like that conclusion though. There has to be SOMETHING to shift the paradigm from bare minimum wins the day.

That does not really work, then you have people crying the game is too hard (reason they do not even try to get better). Hence why they added easy and very easy modes when those missions are already way way way too easy even on normal. You literally have to intentionally force yourself to lose even on normal.
But if you mention it, you are toxic elitist. The truth is that these people only care for themselves and have no regards if the group around them feel uncomfortable. They are the vocal so they are being listened aswell

[Seera1024]

That does not really work, then you have people crying the game is too hard (reason they do not even try to get better). Hence why they added easy and very easy modes when those missions are already way way way too easy even on normal. You literally have to intentionally force yourself to lose even on normal.
But if you mention it, you are toxic elitist. The truth is that these people only care for themselves and have no regards if the group around them feel uncomfortable. They are the vocal so they are being listened aswell

That's not the case for everyone at every stage of their journey.

I know there were some solo duties that I failed and not for lack of trying to play my best when I leveling up my first class - Black Mage. I've never been an ice mage and I AoE when appropriate and use the appropriate Fire and Blizzard spells.

I do however feel that it should only open up Easy after failing on Normal and you have to fail on Easy to get Very Easy to open up.

Have had fewer of those instances on an alt that I've leveling up on a different class so not sure if due to me being better at the game or if I'm just better at my alt class than the main class.

[lezard21]

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

[Kaurhz]

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment. Getting better is gradual and not immediate progress so random groups on DF will only end up being at each other's throats if this has any bearing on group progress, looting or achievements.

You just need to deal with the simple fact of the matter that players won't meet your expectation. Then the other question is does your expectation of what constitutes 'good DPS' align with how SE would attune these values.

The biggest rule in teaching is you do not force someone to learn, ever. It is something you encourage over time, and progressively in creative ways. It just happens that SE is severely missing the mark on progressive and creative in this regard.

[lezard21]

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment.

The toxic environment already exists perpetuated by people who want to do less than the bare minimum expecting others to carry them and throwing tantrums when someone tries to explain them why they are doing things wrong.

[Kaurhz]

The toxic environment already exists perpetuated by people who want to do less than the bare minimum expecting others to carry them and throwing tantrums when someone tries to explain them why they are doing things wrong.

Yes and this just augments that toxicity by attaching performance metrics to rewards. If you're in dungeons and 3/4 players barely even the minimum with one to snuff with everyone minimum item level then I'm sorry but the dungeon most likely isn't going to go as smooth as you'd like it to go. If that tank isn't comfortable enough doing full wall pulls, then that drags potentially other people through the dirt and negates their opportunity at a reward. People are bad enough without rewards attached, or penalties, let alone when you start attaching these things.

I get it, I really do. I get tired of people that can't be bothered, I get sick and tired of people that can't even be bothered running an essence in Delubrum and I've done this long enough for it to leave scars on my soul. But the simple fact of the matter remains is you cannot force someone to learn, and potentially punishing players that do care about their performance by creating time-based rewards or loots just creates conflict between players.

If people don't care about their efficiency or their time, then there's a fairly decent chance they aren't going to care for what forced learning you want to try and put them through.

[Vahlnir]

My problem with this is it does help to breed a toxic environment. Getting better is gradual and not immediate progress so random groups on DF will only end up being at each other's throats if this has any bearing on group progress, looting or achievements.

Yep, exactly. This is not the solution.

[Kes13a]

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

no. then you get people just speed running things. doesnt make them any better. you get people angry because someone might want to read things or watch a cutscene... so.. no, not a good idea