Please implement something to teach players how to play

[TaleraRistain]

Literally present from the start, and across DnD before that. "Healer" as some mutually exclusive task set is the far newer idea -- albeit one that doesn't actually exist in the class designs themselves, but simply in the minds of those who want an excuse for time spent idle.

Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

[Shurrikhan]

Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

EverQuest is not the first, and that has more to do with spell schools, ability balance, and, above all, little patience for people to learn how to juggle their spells due to just how punishing a wipe would be.

But let me guess, they also gave him shit over using Hammer of Wrath/Striking/etc. on undead and before one's party has access yet to enchanted weapons, or Holy Might/Aweflash/etc when the stun could prevent more damage than Healing/Sincere Remedy/etc., respectively, could heal? Told him he should never use Blessing of Piety or the like because it costs too much mana that should be reserved for spamming , even when he had plenty?

...They were being selfishly reductive, likely to the disbenefit of the run, on the off-chance their Cleric hadn't yet learned to juggle their skills appropriately. But, that's what happens when literally everything is slow af -- as any actual failure, above all else, wastes even more inordinate amounts of time. That, however, has little bearing on design since.

What you're describing has at least as much to do, in core RPG terms, with the tendency to Rest after every fight on the off-chance you might need your fifth Minor Healing charge as it does actual intended design on classes capable of healing. It's a matter of (excessive) caution, over taking the time and chances to become, ultimately, more efficient. Cleric was a flex support. Reducing it to a healer hardly seems "intended" if it thereby wastes 3/4s of the kit.

[TaleraRistain]

EverQuest is not the first, and that has more to do with spell schools, ability balance, and, above all, little patience for people to learn how to juggle their spells due to just how punishing a wipe would be.

But let me guess, they also gave him shit over using Hammer of Wrath/Striking/etc. on undead and before one's party has access yet to enchanted weapons, or Holy Might/Aweflash/etc when the stun could prevent more damage than Healing/Sincere Remedy/etc., respectively, could heal? Told him he should never use Blessing of Piety or the like because it costs too much mana that should be reserved for spamming , even when he had plenty?

...They were being selfishly reductive, likely to the disbenefit of the run, on the off-chance their Cleric hadn't yet learned to juggle their skills appropriately. But, that's what happens when literally everything is slow af -- as any actual failure, above all else, wastes even more inordinate amounts of time. That, however, has little bearing on design since.

What you're describing has at least as much to do, in core RPG terms, with the tendency to Rest after every fight on the off-chance you might need your fifth Minor Healing charge as it does actual intended design on classes capable of healing. It's a matter of (excessive) caution, over taking the time and chances to become, ultimately, more efficient. Cleric was a flex support. Reducing it to a healer hardly seems "intended" if it thereby wastes 3/4s of the kit.

EQ had a lot more set in stone roles. When we were raiding, clerics had a channel where they coordinated their chain heals. Enchanters like me had a channel where we coordinated our mezzes. I kept the haste and the mana regen going otherwise because dropping my pitiful DoT or doing my DD on anything really was a waste of mana because the devs didn't design us with high damage in mind. Same with my cleric friend. He did that because he was a dwarf and wanted to behave like a Tolkien dwarf, not because the design made it more than slapping the mob. The actual direct damage classes handled whittling everything down. I quit after Depths, so maybe things changed up a bit after that point.

This was also the case in early WoW and early EQII though since everyone was supposed to be able to solo the solo content it wasn't as rigid until you got into more grouping content. And in WoW it could depend on your build. But to claim this the idea of set roles was never the norm is not true. When a true support role was still a thing, it was very much heavily baked into game design.

[SniperCT]

Not even remotely true. My friend got all kinds of shit in EverQuest on his dwarven cleric because he would put Yaulp on himself and go up to hit things. You were there to heal and shield and gods help you if you did anything else.

Back in the day if you so much as suggested a druid could dps or a paladin tank in WoW you got called a heathen. I think for a lot of players there's this ingrained sense of how things are that has to be unlearned for FF14

It's not that the classes didn't have a toolkit to allow dps, but players set an expectation early on. Plus some of these games the content required healers to spend most of their time healing and any attempts to DPS could lead to a wipe.

It's a really hard mindset to shake off.

[TaleraRistain]

Back in the day if you so much as suggested a druid could dps or a paladin tank in WoW you got called a heathen. I think for a lot of players there's this ingrained sense of how things are that has to be unlearned for FF14

It's not that the classes didn't have a toolkit to allow dps, but players set an expectation early on. Plus some of these games the content required healers to spend most of their time healing and any attempts to DPS could lead to a wipe.

It's a really hard mindset to shake off.

It was a situation where classes didn't have a toolkit for dps in EQ. My DoT and direct damage as an enchanter was pretty much pointless. I didn't even use them charm soloing. That's because my kit revolved around support. I was keeping the group hasted, keeping up mana regen, slowing the mob we were focused on, and making these 7 mobs drool on themselves while I mind-controlled an 8th into fighting for us. If I felt froggy, I got my pet Shiny Bob out and let him do his pitiful damage on the focused mob. The game was designed with the idea that certain classes kept to specific roles. We could work outside the box sometimes, like the night a party couldn't find a tank so we let a troll shaman kite mobs around in a circle while our rangers and mages plunked away and I kept things slowed, but it was incredibly slow going because that group was missing a key role that made normal camping groups work. So, yes, in early MMO times it was a case where tank and support classes didn't have the tools for dps because the game expected they would fulfill a certain role and made that role necessary.

If XIV required the same amount of support to a party and had dps skills that were less effective, then we'd see a game design that supported a similar mentality. The difference is that XIV does provide an adequate toolkit for dps and fights aren't designed in such a way that they expect certain classes will always be busy with certain roles. It's a shame, really. I rather enjoyed early in this game when we still did things like Sleep/Repose the big guy in the second Brayflox fight, because the team needed to focus the little guy down. And you would bring slightly different things to the table depending on which other classes you had leveled up to get cross class skills from. But that's a place where player expectation bit us on the ass, ie every healer *must* level a THM for Swiftcast. I'd have loved if our choice as healers to dps really was a balancing act but it's turned into just a default we do because the game doesn't make us responsible for anything else and doesn't even make healing something we always need to be doing.

[Infindox]

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

If you are playing the game casually you are still expected to know how your job works. A fc friend of mine is absolutely terrified of doing anything higher then unsynced SB extremes and usually just does chill activities, yet she still knows how her job works and pulls her weight in the stuff she partiapates in. And she'd be the first one to tell a tank if they are only grabbing one group that they can pull more. Remember that you are playing a game where your actions affect the other 3/7/23/however many people you got in CLL and Dal with you.

[DPZ2]

Would the people who think a mid-to-high end in-game tutorial would work wonders for this game: Please cite examples from other MMOs where this sort of thing has worked wonders for that game. Show by example, not by mere rhetoric, please.

[Yurihyuga]

just did a 50 dungeon with a synced 72 blm. tank pulled large groups and this BLM sat there and spammed fire 1.
1. Did this person not notice the fire 3 symbol glowing when it procs
2. At level 72 did this person not ever notice that Fire 2 ever existed.
and of course
3. does this person even care.

Most of these people fall under category 3 and explaining anything is a waste of time, the game is simple and I think enough resources have already been spent on new people, people do need to help themselves and no in game training hall is going to magically make someone good. Its up to people to practice rotations in a static environment via a dummy then practice in real game situations(I don't knock anyone making mistakes in there rotation, hell its a breeze of fresh air when you can tell someone is at least trying) For the people who try and its a job I have a lot of experience in I have sent polite messages afterwards offering some help if they want it some have gladly taken it, some have said no thanks there still trying, some don't respond but that's fine.

However you do get people like the BLM I had and basically got 2 choices kick or get through it because people like that won't listen and will likely get angry if you tried to explain anything. There is a difference between casual play and I just want people to put up with me not wanting to actually play this game but I want gear.(still not sure why people like that play the game, some people argue that there just in it for the story but why pay a sub and waste there money when they can watch story videos on youtube) Either way to each there own just wish they understand that there is 3 other people that depend on them and in other cases 7 people.

[Pirana1]

just did a 50 dungeon with a synced 72 blm. tank pulled large groups and this BLM sat there and spammed fire 1.
1. Did this person not notice the fire 3 symbol glowing when it procs
2. At level 72 did this person not ever notice that Fire 2 ever existed.
and of course
3. does this person even care.

Most of these people fall under category 3 and explaining anything is a waste of time, the game is simple and I think enough resources have already been spent on new people, people do need to help themselves and no in game training hall is going to magically make someone good. Its up to people to practice rotations in a static environment via a dummy then practice in real game situations(I don't knock anyone making mistakes in there rotation, hell its a breeze of fresh air when you can tell someone is at least trying) For the people who try and its a job I have a lot of experience in I have sent polite messages afterwards offering some help if they want it some have gladly taken it, some have said no thanks there still trying, some don't respond but that's fine.

However you do get people like the BLM I had and basically got 2 choices kick or get through it because people like that won't listen and will likely get angry if you tried to explain anything. There is a difference between casual play and I just want people to put up with me not wanting to actually play this game but I want gear.(still not sure why people like that play the game, some people argue that there just in it for the story but why pay a sub and waste there money when they can watch story videos on youtube) Either way to each there own just wish they understand that there is 3 other people that depend on them and in other cases 7 people.

Similar situation earlier this week. White Mage refused to use Cure 2 no matter how many times the tank asked. Cure 1 is a situational heal, but it should never be used as the norm. After wiping twice, we removed the WHM and found a competent healer. Problem solved.

All some are asking is that you read your tooltips and do some research regarding your class. I've only been playing this mmo for roughly two months now, and once I moved past the ARR content and realized mechanics actually matter on boss fights, I did plenty of research on Youtube, notably the following: https://www.youtube.com/user/MTQcapture and The Balance Discord for class rotations. The problem that I'm seeing is that, as mentioned a few posts above, is that this is only a hobby to some, which is fine, play your way, but don't queue up expecting a carry from others that have put the work in, when you refuse to, or it's only a hobby. That's what solo play is for.

[Krojack]

The game already has this system. It's called "Guildhests".

There is only so much the devs can do to teach someone how to play the game. Also players will always find a better way so what the devs "teach" you won't be the best way to play.