Please implement something to teach players how to play

[linayar]

It is the only alternative by which 3 out of 4 players are not compelled to play the style of the 1 of 4. That does not mean the kick must occur. It only means that it's utter bull to call the alternative, by which the 1 in 4 rules by default, not a compelled play style.


Then we're left with the old "Since only communication is punishable, just kick immediately to ensure there is no context from which intent may be inferred, since blanket reasons for a kick (including "Differing Playstyles) are always protected." Great.


Equally:
"Myself and the remainder of the party apart from you want X."
"That's nice but I want Y and I have control by default so... /shrug."

So which is more thoroughly compelling one's play style upon others?

No, I get it. The second is protected on a technicality and asking for the odd man out not to force their play style on others is against the ToA. I get that. But that's also complete rubbish.

It's not a complete rubbish when the role responsibility is distributed that way.

Otherwise, you get "you pull, you tank" mentality (which I disagree with, but I can understand if people are going to play the "you're in the minority" card on tanks).

The tank role is the one that has to make sure to engage all enemies. That's why they're the ones that should determine minimum pull size based on what they're comfortable doing.

Meanwhile, the healer+DPS determines maximum pull size as a limiter to the tank. If the tank pulls more than the party can handle, then it's a wipe.

Taken together, the pull size is what everyone is comfortable with and can handle. Thus, it's a party effort.

On the matter of the kick, if more people are willing to report getting kicks, I'd like to see "differing playstyles" be challenged as it's not an option given in the menu. They should either add it (with user input to clarify) or otherwise clarify the rule uniformly, not just let random GM decide on their own.

With that said, a vote kick is a tool that has been provided, so feel free to use it in the manner not breaking the rules and let the tank find another party if it passes.

[Hyrist]

I'll be blunt. I've heard this argument my entire tenure in the game and the answer is the same - they're not going to alienate players by *forcing* players to play to your standard.

If they're clearing content, they're making the bar. There's harder content out there if you want to avoid them, stick to doing that content or stick to your static, if you have one. If you're doing roulettes - you roll the dice. Personally - I'm more concerned with poor attitudes than poor performances - and when I want to avoid both (And/or the DPS queue timer) I leveled up my trusts. I'll take the added dungeon time to avoid the stress when I don't feel like it. On that point - as long as Trusts exist, you're never going to be able to enforce any sort of bar to get people to pass in order to play this game. It may be time to make peace with that.

Content *has* gotten progressively more involved, anyone who's watching the new spike of WoW Streamers play the game can attest to that. And we still have people complaining about the typical pet peeves.

Honestly, there are exceptions to a lot of those complaints and more to be had. A tank that doesn't trust a group or isn't feeling like stressing themselves out will pull slower. A healer not confident in their ability to heal yet will not dps. And those two are the only ones who can judge when they're ready to push themselves. In dungeon content, who cares? If you're that concerned - party with friends and don't rely on randoms who won't always be on par.

Roulette Content as about as casual as you get in this game, so stressing out over it sounds more like a personal problem than a game problem. There are other ways of making in-game currency that don't involve other random people. It may be more worth your while to use them. I do, and I've learned to be much less stressed and judgmental for doing so.

Just be friendly and encourage players to push towards excellence as politely as you can, and learn a little patience on your own end. Use the alternatives available to you if you're not in the mood to tolerate it. I promise you it'll serve you well.

[Casti_EL]

Personally I think they should do away with the lvl 70 boosts and instead sell a fantasia-styled potion that allows you to instantly jump 5 levels or something (obviously at a cheaper price than the boost). That way you could still level at a decent pace to experience new abilities whilst skipping over some of the more boring bits of levelling (i.e. specific dungeon queuing on dps alts for levelling). FYI, I have used a boost on one of my dps after I hit around 30-40 due to bordem/burnout with levelling and I do regret it as I'm instantly level 70 with no clue about proper rotation or nuances of the job (watching videos online to learn before taking it into any group content), but the thought of constantly queuing for dungeons with a potential 10-30 minute each time to get from 40-70 wait was just making me hate the role.

Just be friendly and encourage players to push towards excellence as politely as you can, and learn a little patience on your own end. Use the alternatives available to you if you're not in the mood to tolerate it. I promise you it'll serve you well.

<-- this! The game is designed around community and teamwork, lot of players will appreciate you taking a bit of time to help them. Granted, not all will and you will get some that think they are better than you/don't need your advice because they were part of the top guild/group/clan in <insert game here> but unfortunately, that's life - you can't help everyone, but the majority of people will appreciate it and listen providing you are polite and helpful about it).

Plus, not everyone is capable of playing at the same skill level, some may have learning disorders or struggle with certain mechanics (I lose to the "Maths" boss mechanic every time because I struggle to process numbers/maths quickly), others may love their role but be really nervous about it (me with Tanks - love the classes and lore, pretty much anxiety melt-down when tanking in group situations), or there could be other aspects (not avoiding AoE's due to a high ping or hardware performance issues).

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- DPS who single targets mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time
- People at max level who have no damn idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80.)

What the hell is going on?

I've been feeling like I'm some crazy elitist just because I have an expectation that you have like an iota of competence.

IDK, detract me. Thanks.

Also, Im not going to bother trying to teach people things in game. Been there, done that. You get screamed at.

TO clarify: I'm mainly concerned about level 70-80 characters having these issues.

-That Healer might be new to healing or new to the dungeon or new to FFXIV. Usually you can tell when a good healer is just...not dpsing. If they 'can't keep up' then thats a good indicator that they lack experience either in the content or their job.

Unfortunately due to jump/skip potions and trusts, these players may have very little experience playing with others.

-If you have less than 3 mobs, the general consensus is to single-target. But other than that, I feel you on this one. Its terrible when it's BLM, who have such awesome aoe capabilities.

-See first one. Usually a single-pull tank indicates that they may not know the enemy groupings or have lower level gear. It's another lack of experience thing. I don't view it as just blatantly being bad. For some, its a preference.

-Problem is, the game doesn't teach you anything really beyond the very basics in gameplay. There are tons of ways to level in the game where you can basically button mash it (Fates, PotD, HoH, squadrons, Trusts) so people stepping into roulettes for first time get kind of a rude awakening.

In any case, the easiest solution is not to implement more in game development or to depend on a bunch of people to gain more experience but rather to simply....have patience. Or remove yourself from the instance. Or remove them from the instance, if your group is like-minded. *Shrugs*

[Rinhi]

-That Healer might be new to healing or new to the dungeon or new to FFXIV. Usually you can tell when a good healer is just...not dpsing. If they 'can't keep up' then thats a good indicator that they lack experience either in the content or their job.

OP is talking about max rank healers (and content ) and I myself have also experienced similar things, be it:

- people with all healers levelled using nothing but cure 1/benefic 1 and medica/helios (!) in late and ilvl locked lvl 80 content, which obviously made it impossible to progress because everyone just ate dirt thanks to all the raidwides the boss used and in one instance, both healers of E12n being this kind of healer who, even after everyone begged them to at least use cure 2/benefic 2 etc, refused to do it and instead responded with snark
- again, at level 80 you should at least your jobs' abilities and have the knowledge that 3+ enemies means that you should AoE and yet, for some people it's an alien concept (though I do have to say this is the thing I've seen the least in all my time playing)
- single pack pulling at 80 does nothing but drain the tanks, healers and dps' resources while also making everything take longer and at that rank, one shouldn't have any kind of tankxiety anymore

the majority of the time, people are helpful and try to nicely point out a supposed problem/issue if they notice it, with only a few times I've seen toxic players screech about something that the player in question either didn't know or had no way of knowing due to being a sprout, but in half of those cases, their helpful advice is just met with rudeness and ego, which could make those helpful players think twice about giving advice to the next person they see
and who can blame those players with an ego? they've cleared, even if it took 15-30 minutes longer than it should've, so the helpful player can't be correct - and all those comms they're getting for their 100% medica 2 and regen uptime means they're REALLY good, right?
but no, seriously, once you see both lvl 70+ red mages in your party hardcast verraise and use the dualcast to vercure the max health tank, only to hardcast verraise AGAIN while 3 people beg them with autotranslation to vercure dualcast verraise, then you might see things from a less than rosy perspective, not to mention hardcasting verthunder and veraero at all times, too. and no, they weren't trolling, having run into one of them a few days later in a lvl 80 roulette where they did the very same thing

[Allegor]

I know I shouldn't compare XIV to WoW, but one of the few things they did right was adding a mandatory mini tutorial instance for boosted characters before letting them out in the open, because they'd know the player in question wouldn't know even the basics of basics to how to use the class, let alone letting them queue for roulettes.

That said, there's playing the game casually and then there's literally not doing their job. If, say, a healer is not healing because they're too focused casting their single dps spell*, that's not casual, it's not even minimum effort, it's straight up not caring, and tbh that's not a behavior that should be condoned.

*and no, I don't mean the WHM that will let me drop to ~10% and use Bene, you know which ones I'm talking about.

[Xuled]

Yeah won't happen dude. People would rather ERP in Limsa talking about how "bad" their life is instead of learning to play. Sucks but it is what it is.

[MrPresident]

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

You’re being intentionally facetious, as are most people in this thread, because it seems to have touched a nerve.

No one, literally no one, said focusing a OHK enemy is the wrong thing to do. Nor is that the point being discussed. What OP is talking about is more how you do it. So you’re taking down this wasp, what are you doing though? Using your full burst damage to kill it before Final Sting? Or are you casting Bio over and over doing no damage until it kills you? The second one is the issue here, but you’re going to keep pretending it’s the first.

You also keep saying “but we cleared it” well, yeah. The content has been dumbed down so much you will clear everything through blunt force. You can queue up premade with a couple of friends and go a whole dungeon using nothing but Total Eclipse, Cure, and Blizzard. Just one move each per class. And you’d get there. But is that really the way the game is meant to be done? Is it really fair on the fourth who’s using all their combos and cooldowns only to have another 30 minutes added on to the run because you can’t read your skill descriptions?

[Drakonic]

To kind of supplement onto this; There is already a system in place in game where you get rewarded for doing things faster.

I think of Castrum LL. You're given the max reward for killing the executioners as fast as possible. I believe someone mentioned that there's something to this effect in Zadnors CLL.

So, this honestly wouldn't hurt. People aren't punished for still managing to complete the objective, they just don't get the maximum possible reward. I've never once seen anyone freak out about failing to clear those instances 100%

I freak out about it because it's not a skill issue. It's literally a communication issue. Almost every single time when people fail to get all 6 chests, it's not because people are bad. It's because people refuse to talk and communicate and you only get one utterance "NE uwu" out of the entire party of 48. And then no one realized that no one is going to SW and the prisoner just dies. It can be so easily prevented if people *gasp* talked in an MMO. Idk why there are so many introverts in an MMO. Go play a single player game if you don't want to talk lmao

[lezard21]

I freak out about it because it's not a skill issue. It's literally a communication issue. Almost every single time when people fail to get all 6 chests, it's not because people are bad. It's because people refuse to talk and communicate and you only get one utterance "NE uwu" out of the entire party of 48. And then no one realized that no one is going to SW and the prisoner just dies. It can be so easily prevented if people *gasp* talked in an MMO. Idk why there are so many introverts in an MMO. Go play a single player game if you don't want to talk lmao

Then you have 20-30 parties, that while it's still incredibly easy to get all prisoners, it most often ends in a 4 rescue scenario because people intentionally grief and bring bad actions, like Cure III and Cure IV on the same person, or DPS with Lost Bubble and Lost Protect. Zadnor brought a semispammable Death that DPS and Tanks can use and people intentionally don't use it.