I hope Square doesn't keep deeming certain content unnecessary

[KizuyaKatogami]

So, I look up the definition of "streamline" to be certain, and based on the definition, dungeons could certainly be more streamlined by having less trash and shorter paths between bosses. People have different expectations on pull size, so making it so that single pull and wall-to-wall pull actually mean the same thing would streamline the dungeon.

Why would they want to simplify dungeons even more though? They’ve already dumbed down the jobs so much that most of them are boring and stale as it is, but now they’re going to streamline the dungeons even more than they’ve done this expansion? What is the point? They seem to just want to make everything easier and take things away rather than give things and address the problems players have.

[linayar]

Why would they want to simplify dungeons even more though? They’ve already dumbed down the jobs so much that most of them are boring and stale as it is, but now they’re going to streamline the dungeons even more than they’ve done this expansion? What is the point? They seem to just want to make everything easier and take things away rather than give things and address the problems players have.

I think it depends on the problem.

Streamlining the pull size would benefit both those who don't want to be overwhelmed by large pulls and those who don't want to be slowed down by single pulls.

And this also reflects on trials and raids as trash/adds have been reduced over time.

[anhaato]

The discussion on content is more nuanced than just getting more or less, we also need to look at the quality of the content we got. We got less dungeons and they were much easier as well. Blame those on covid, whatever, but to be fair, Paglth'an wasn't THAT brainless. I was actually happy to see that the packs were more difficult and you could wall pull again. Yes, Bozja had less zones than Eureka and I'm forever disappointed by that, but the actual quality of the content within was much higher than Eureka, and the option to farm your relic outside of it was, imo, a net positive. More people finished their relics because they had less of an excuse not to. The Eden raids are... debatable. The last tier, imo, was great. Everything else, though... Shiva was intense but the ramp up in difficulty was too jarring with how braindead 7 was. I'm willing to believe they learned from how generally panned the 5.2 raid tier was, most people said it was boring and they followed it up with a genuinely good raid tier. I don't think they're actively ignoring us, but it seems to me that it took them too long to listen, and any fixes they wanted to make to the quality of content in response to us came really late in the pack's life cycle.

They've been making great promises about how 6.0 is going to be full to bursting with content. Ideally the way they would do that is by listening and looking back at their previous successes. It should be obvious to them by now that everyone thinks Stormblood battle content was better than Shadowbringers. Yoshi-p also promised more Hildibrand and a new deep dungeon because of the outcry. In fact, that's how we got a new healer to begin with, because of outcry. And that's why I believe the battle content started to suddenly improve at the end of this pack; because of the outcry about how boring it was. It's probably how we ended up with Matoya's being a strange combination of bosses with actual mechanics and sleeper trash packs made of tissue paper, and Paglth'an being a respectable dungeon in its own right, much more fun to get in expert roulette. And it's probably how we ended up with a raid tier that was much more exciting than the ones before.

The devs usually listen. There's no need to lie to yourself and constantly stick out your neck to defend their bad choices. They won't start crying if we tell them we don't like what they've been giving us, that's how the game gets better. And that's my purpose for making this thread, to let them know that there's still more we want, and we don't want them to half-ass it either. They pushed off 6.0's release another two months, the content better live up to all of their promises.

[DrWho2010]

There's no need to lie to yourself and constantly stick out your neck to defend their bad choices. They won't start crying if we tell them we don't like what they've been giving us, that's how the game gets better. And that's my purpose for making this thread, to let them know that there's still more we want, and we don't want them to half-ass it either. They pushed off 6.0's release another two months, the content better live up to all of their promises.

I don't think people stand up to defend creator creative choices enough. People demand too much these days from their entertainment (and this is just a game, it is not a way of life and too many people are substituting games as such). You ratchet up your expectations way too high, you're gonna get burned by the sun because you've put yourself up there.

IMO one should have ZERO expectations going into anything. That way you can be pleasantly surprised instead of experiencing crushing bitterness.

So what if they added a couple extra months to the production schedule? That's two more months I have to do other things. I'm in no hurry here.

[anhaato]

I don't think people stand up to defend creator creative choices enough. People demand too much these days from their entertainment (and this is just a game, it is not a way of life and too many people are substituting games as such). You ratchet up your expectations way too high, you're gonna get burned by the sun because you've put yourself up there.

IMO one should have ZERO expectations going into anything. That way you can be pleasantly surprised instead of experiencing crushing bitterness.

So what if they added a couple extra months to the production schedule? That's two more months I have to do other things. I'm in no hurry here.

I can't agree with that. When content starts to be repeated over the course of two or three packs (depending on what you consider ARR to be in this discussion), then it should come as no surprise that people will expect it to be praxis for the game going forward. We got deep dungeons for Heavensward and Stormblood, and they were both very popular, so it's not unreasonable for a good number of people to have been like "man I can't wait to see what they'll do for this next pack!" and then be disappointed with it not happening at all. But, again, that's why it's a good thing that we're likely getting one in 6.x! Because Square can see our disappointment, and they're doing their best to respond in kind. Expectations are what keep developers on their toes and delivering quality. If the playerbase was in the mindset of going in expecting nothing like you suggest, then there would be no reason for them to deliver the level of content this game is known for, the level of content that led it to (allegedly) overtaking retail WoW as the MMO with the most active players. The game prides itself in being full of things to do with no real pressure to do any of it, so to start trimming off large chunks of it for good, including stuff that was very popular, just doesn't make sense and would be bad practice going forward. They clearly realize this as well.

And believe me, I'm not upset about the delay. I was upset at first because of the vague promise of "fall" sounding like it would release around late September based on the combination of precedent and delays, but if they're taking this extra time then that means they're working hard to deliver something befitting the end of this 11 year storyline. FARRRRR be it from me to take to doomerisms about this game. I'm excited for the next pack, while believing they'll deliver on their promises.

[DrWho2010]

I can't agree with that. When content starts to be repeated over the course of two or three packs (depending on what you consider ARR to be in this discussion), then it should come as no surprise that people will expect it to be praxis for the game going forward. We got deep dungeons for Heavensward and Stormblood, and they were both very popular, so it's not unreasonable for a good number of people to have been like "man I can't wait to see what they'll do for this next pack!" and then be disappointed with it not happening at all.

Just because A meant that B happens doesn't mean it HAS to lead to C happening. Again, ZERO expectations. (also the feeling stale argument again).

Because Square can see our disappointment, and they're doing their best to respond in kind.

Eh... I kinda think they're just caving, but that's my opinion. Honestly I don't want another DD. I'd rather have something new.

Expectations are what keep developers on their toes and delivering quality.

Nah, that's just what shareholders gauge and use as fuel to foist decisions on to the devs to make them more profit to line their own pockets. But that's not really the crux of the argument here.

If the playerbase was in the mindset of going in expecting nothing like you suggest, then there would be no reason for them to deliver the level of content this game is known for

Mmmm. No. Again does no one take creative vision or want into account on that side of things? People want to be free to create what they would like to make and it just so happens that the output level of it is as high as it is. BUT they've had years to get good at it of course (but even then things still don't come out right either. Balan Wonderworld, Avengers, awful font choices in Pixel Remasters, exclusion of extra content from other versions in said Remasters....oops getting off topic).

the level of content that led it to (allegedly) overtaking retail WoW as the MMO with the most active players.

Nah that's just the result of a company doing everything wrong and finally getting their comeuppance.

The game prides itself in being full of things to do with no real pressure to do any of it, so to start trimming off large chunks of it for good, including stuff that was very popular, just doesn't make sense and would be bad practice going forward.

Even if they had wanted to include the quote unquote cut stuff.... COVID put a major hamper on everything, and gamer public at large just don't seem to acknowledge how bad things actually affected production because we don't get to see behind closed doors. mostly because they don't want to believe it.

[Kolsykol]

Going back and doing my ARR relic weapons kinda reminded me of some content that is kinda just dead nowadays.
I'd like to see new levequests and guildhests and better rewards.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

I agree a lot with your posts. What i do want to say is i slightly disagree on some of the quality in things. I really fail to see how bozja is a better eureka. The zones look really meh in comparison but i suppose that’s subjective, but the relic steps are also just...really brainless. All it was, was literally here i know you’re in this new expansion and all....but go back to previous expansions to complete this relic because it’s much more optimal to do it that way than to do it in the actual instance the relic is based off of. I like that they gave people another option, but the fact they made doing it in bozja just so inefficient just seemed like backwards thinking to me..I’m still upset that they just absolutely didn’t give Dnc it Gnb primal weapons outside of Shinryu, and also didn’t give them Ultimate Weapon models like San and Rdm got. Both things btw that would’ve been out before Covid, so that isn’t even an excuse.As for Eden, I felt like last tier of Eden was okay.E9 my least favorite since it’s all reused stuff. E10 had a lot of potential but they didn’t really use any of the unique mechanics a lot. E11 is great and e12 is meh(another reusing mechanics fight) but e12s is phenomenal and the only raid i’ve ever actually enjoyed. In regards to the ignoring statement....idk. Something i always bring up is the housing issue. People have begged for 6-8 years for them to change the placard system. They’ve ignored it. Something big which would fix the system entirely would be instances housing. The literal only reason we don’t have that, is because Yoshi P doesn’t like it. Honestly with their promises...but then looking at what they did this expansion with simplifying everything i have no hope. People have complained for years about fixing healers and giving them some sort of dps rotation and they’ve been silent.With them talking about how much time they’re putting into 6.0, it kind of gives me ptsd lmao. When ShB first released, they said they had spent the most time they ever have before on balancing the healers. We then got on release Sch and Ast and they were absolute messes. Sch still hasn’t recovered. I agree very much with your last point btw. I don’t understand all these white knights for SE that are so like...defensive over them when it comes to criticism. This community is full of people like that too. Criticism is literally what makes or breaks a game. Similar to what you said, if people don’t critique or give feedback, how are they going to know what to fix or add?

[DrWho2010]

People can give critique and feedback but it usually comes from a highly biased place that would only benefit them or a very small group of people. And is mostly like just turn this into this from this other game cuz i wanna feel overpowered. or give me this right away because i don't want to put the time in.

High level actual GOOD feedback, you don't see very often.

[Alleo]

High level actual GOOD feedback, you don't see very often.

So what exactly is High level (good) feedback? And of course critique and feedback will be quite biased...thats exactly the point of feedback. That someone else with another mindset and view on things play the content and then say what they liked/loved/disliked/hated. As long as its not about some technical issue feedback like that will most of the time be subjective and that should be fine. And even if it only would benefit a small group they should be allowed to voice their concern too.

Honestly for me it sometimes feels that some people take feedback towards a game as personal attacks to themselves. (The only one that I dont like is feedback that makes it seem that people who like it are in some kind of way bad/stupid or more.) Of course there will be people that just write "this sucks" just as there will be people that just simply write that they love it but a big amount of people really try to say why they feel that way.