Open World PvP

[Eldevern]

Bullying and harassment is not a normal behavior. Unfortunatly, in all PVP MMO I've tested you see gank, greykill, bullying, harassment. And it doesn't become acceptable because "it not the real life", "it's a game"... except behind the avatar, there is a real human (most of time ;-) )

And it ends with PVP dedicated server, "niche" game or opt-in system... and people to complain there's no PVP anymore, to complain the game is dying, to complain they can't bully, harass, gank or GK...

FPS, Battle Royale or MOBA, you sign for PVP and the gameplay is build ONLY around PVP. As soon as you mix PVE and PVP and vertical progression, it turns to a mess.

[Anhra]

Bullying and harassment is not a normal behavior. Unfortunatly, in all PVP MMO I've tested you see gank, greykill, bullying, harassment. And it doesn't become acceptable because "it not the real life", "it's a game"... except behind the avatar, there is a real human (most of time ;-) )

And it ends with PVP dedicated server, "niche" game or opt-in system... and people to complain there's no PVP anymore, to complain the game dying, to complain they can't bully, harass, gank or GK...

FPS, Battle Royale or MOBA, you sign for PVP and the gameplay is build ONLY around PVP. As soon as you mix PVE and PVP and vertical progression, it turns to a mess.

And in the Raiding community this doesn't happen? Give me a break already. Of course there is People getting vulgar in those type of contents, this is nothing new, there is always a few bad apples arround every tree.

And to get one thing straight, killing another player in a PvP setting, even if it is repetitive, is by no means a attack on a personal level. If you constantly fail for the same jebait you only got yourself to blame for not being able to think arround the situation. It is the same as fighting a Boss character in PvE content, if you keep doing the same approach even trough you already got yourself killed by doing the exact same thing, all you can expect is that your character will get its fair share of beating.

Also as said numerous times already, the Idea of OWPvP usually works on dedicated servers. If you dont like getting killed by player, because you enjoy your plotarmor too much, then noone will hold it aganist you for joining a PvE server.

[VelKallor]

My use of the word sociopath is an apt description of their behaviour

a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Doesn’t feel guilt or remorse for having harmed or mistreated others.

I'd say that that description is an accurate assessment of the behaviour I have listed above. The kind of person who goes about wrecking others gameplay with no consideration for anyone save themselves, the kind of person who takes it upon themselves to drive others out of a game for their personal satisfaction, an utter craven coward who cant or wont fight players their own level or skill or abilities and instead attacks others weaker than themselves repeatedly to validate their own existence.

A person who doesnt care about anyone save themselves, who isnt interested in what others want but is concerned mainly for what they want, will destroy NPCs and flightmasters and vendors for no other reason than to make sure others cant use them. Who does so with no conscience and no regard for others.

Id say sociopath is an exact assessment...one, I might add, that was used in conjunction with another MMO type game when the issue of gankers attacking and killing new players as they exited the starter area was raised in developement. So they took steps to make sure it didnt happen.

Open world pvp usually has one major consequence, one that YoshiP is well aware of. The moment that FF 14 allows this will be the day that a lot of players walk away, but will also ACTIVELY warn others not to play or go anywhere near. Word of mouth can kill a game in a very short time. Then you get the situation that people will refuse to sign up on these pvp servers, which will lead to more whining as they will say "No one is on these empty servers please fix".

Cant make people sign up to those servers..can you?

https://massivelyop.com/2020/01/18/n...are-not-happy/

Essentially, the blog lays out the problems the team confronted during the closed alpha of 2018 and 2019 – namely, that enough people are gankity ganking gankers when given half a chance that it made the relatively open-loot, free-for-all PvP setting a huge turn-off for many testers and devs.

“One of the problems we observed with this system was that some high level players were killing low level players, A LOT,” AGS explains. “Sometimes exclusively. This often led to solo or group griefing scenarios that created a toxic environment for many players. To be clear, this behavior was not shown by all PvP players, but enough to cause significant issues.”

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and here

“The result [of UO’s PK environment] was an exodus driven not only by the more modern 3-D graphics of [EverQuest] but by the safety. Everything I had thought about the impossible admin load of having a PK switch with a large-scale game was disproven in short order, and players wasted no time in telling me bluntly that I had been drastically and painfully wrong. In the name of player freedoms, I had put them through the slow-drip torture of two years of experiments with slowly tightening behavior rules, trying to save the emergence while tamping down the bad behavior. The cost was the loss of many hundreds of thousands of players. Ultima Online had churned through more than twice as many players who quit than EverQuest even got as subscribers that year.”

Lets take your idea:

New player rolls on pvp server. New player is ganked mercilessly.

New player moves to a non pvp server and tells anyone he can find to stay AWAY from those servers at all costs...to say nothing of the adverse publicity for FF 14 that will be generated when news of this gets out to the gaming world.

If you think for one moment the FF 14 devs hadnt taken all this into account, arent aware of the pitfalls and damage it could do to the entire franchise ( none of the other FF games are open world pvp and this one wont be either, neither will be FF 15, I can gaurantee it ), they do, trust me on this.

They do.

I will end this with a quotation I have used before, and it fits.

"MMO players do not just actively dislike open world pvp..they loathe it"

[Eldevern]

And in the Raiding community this doesn't happen?

Because someone is doing something bad doesn't allow someone else to do the same "but he did it" as child react about being punished when he only imitate someone doing something bad or stupid.

And killing a low level player in a low level area when you are ten or more levels higher has nothing to do with teaching or mentorship. It's bullying, harassment, one sided and cruel fun... and the reason why many people just don't play PVP MMO (but can play FPS, MOBA, Battle Royale, since.. at least in theory, it's a fair fight).

[Taliriah]

From a cursory look it seems the arguments against all boil down to "I wouldn't like it therefore it shouldn't happen".

But I don't think that anyone is saying that open world pvp shouldn't be opt-in (either by having pvp servers, a wow like warmode, or whatever else), so I don't understand those arguments.

[redheadturk]

I do not want OW PVP in this game. Period. OW pvp, when it was a thing in GW1, is why I *quit* GW1 in the first place. I got tired of getting ganked while on leveling quests as soon as I stepped outside a starter zone.

[Fhaerron]

I do not want OW PVP in this game. Period. OW pvp, when it was a thing in GW1, is why I *quit* GW1 in the first place. I got tired of getting ganked while on leveling quests as soon as I stepped outside a starter zone.

Um what? Have we been playing different games?
Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 have no open world pvp.

[Eldevern]

...

It's easy to explain : many people who ask "Open World" PVP cannot be satisfied with an PVP Server or an Opt-In system since most of the time, there are not enough encounter in their opinion, plus they can't exert their frustration with gank and GK.

If they only wanted PVP, they could explain what kind of change they wish on the PVP maps but no. They ask "Open World PVP". But in "Open World PVP", there are pretty less chance to meet someone who actually want PVP while wandering on maps than when tagging for PVP maps. What will they meet on "Open Maps" : people in leveling, people doing MSQ, people gathering. They... actually expect a fair and interesting encounter? Statistics make this pretty unlikely.

Now technically, nothing in the game is built for Open World PVP : the delay for job switch and the craft/gathering gearing system are not compatible.

[BaconBits]

My use of the word sociopath is an apt description of their behaviour





I'd say that that description is an accurate assessment of the behaviour I have listed above. The kind of person who goes about wrecking others gameplay with no consideration for anyone save themselves, the kind of person who takes it upon themselves to drive others out of a game for their personal satisfaction, an utter craven coward who cant or wont fight players their own level or skill or abilities and instead attacks others weaker than themselves repeatedly to validate their own existence.

A person who doesnt care about anyone save themselves, who isnt interested in what others want but is concerned mainly for what they want, will destroy NPCs and flightmasters and vendors for no other reason than to make sure others cant use them. Who does so with no conscience and no regard for others.

Id say sociopath is an exact assessment...one, I might add, that was used in conjunction with another MMO type game when the issue of gankers attacking and killing new players as they exited the starter area was raised in developement. So they took steps to make sure it didnt happen.

Open world pvp usually has one major consequence, one that YoshiP is well aware of. The moment that FF 14 allows this will be the day that a lot of players walk away, but will also ACTIVELY warn others not to play or go anywhere near. Word of mouth can kill a game in a very short time. Then you get the situation that people will refuse to sign up on these pvp servers, which will lead to more whining as they will say "No one is on these empty servers please fix".

Cant make people sign up to those servers..can you?

https://massivelyop.com/2020/01/18/n...are-not-happy/

\

and here



Lets take your idea:

New player rolls on pvp server. New player is ganked mercilessly.

New player moves to a non pvp server and tells anyone he can find to stay AWAY from those servers at all costs...to say nothing of the adverse publicity for FF 14 that will be generated when news of this gets out to the gaming world.

If you think for one moment the FF 14 devs hadnt taken all this into account, arent aware of the pitfalls and damage it could do to the entire franchise ( none of the other FF games are open world pvp and this one wont be either, neither will be FF 15, I can gaurantee it ), they do, trust me on this.

They do.

I will end this with a quotation I have used before, and it fits.

"MMO players do not just actively dislike open world pvp..they loathe it"

[TheMightyMollusk]

From a cursory look it seems the arguments against all boil down to "I wouldn't like it therefore it shouldn't happen".

But I don't think that anyone is saying that open world pvp shouldn't be opt-in (either by having pvp servers, a wow like warmode, or whatever else), so I don't understand those arguments.

Personally, I don't like it, but my POV is "Put it on its own server and I just won't go there". As long as the server has a warning on it so people know what they're getting into, it's fine.

I mean, it makes no sense lore-wise, but neither do playable male Miqo'te or Viera, so that's a slim excuse.