Open World PvP

[linayar]

Until someone steps in and says "go back to wow." It happens, and I don't like it.

Meh, that's their opinion, but it's also a valid choice. I tried WoW for a year and went back to FFXIV, but I don't regret having played WoW. People have different preferences, and if your preference is something that another game already does well, it becomes an option.

I'm happy to see so many new players popping in on the forums and ingame, and I want to see them keep coming. I especially hope they all have a blast with the game.

Agreed, but I also understand FFXIV won't be for everyone, so I'd rather it be for me than not for me.

[linayar]

Problem is this whole discussion is not "expression of disagreements" it's just making up buzzwords to push your hidden agenda. Both of the groups argue in a very weird way for or against wopvp, it's not even arguing it's just self reassuring justification they make themselves to protect their world view.
The first group is clearly scared of the challenge wopvp would bring (be it social or whatever) but this challenge is not real it's manufactured by their own fear of whatever scary movie they made for themselves. So they throw away buzzwords like "griefing" (which isn't real if for example you yourself "turn pvp on", just don't turn it on, just an example) "toxicity" just to push this scary movie they created. But this movie is still very detached from reality. And even if it wasn't detached from reality the thing that will have final say in this is the data on pvp activity not some movie someone produced inside their head.
The other group for some reason needs to justify that killing others is fun. Which is just fact. Challenging other players is fun. Completely destroying lower level player is fun. It's why people smurf in very competitive games. You shouldn't have to argue for this it's a fact. It's how human lizard brain works. Arguing for it or against it makes zero sense.

Making up buzzwords like "human lizard brain?"

Calling something fun is not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, which may be factually true for the one who says it, but does not exempt it from being the subject of an argument.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Making up buzzwords like "human lizard brain?"

Calling something fun is not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, which may be factually true for the one who says it, but does not exempt it from being the subject of an argument.

My favorite bit is the "clearly scared of the challenge wopvp brings" followed by "its fun completely destroying low level players" what challenge is that?

[Artemiz]

Making up buzzwords like "human lizard brain?"

Calling something fun is not a statement of fact, but a statement of opinion, which may be factually true for the one who says it, but does not exempt it from being the subject of an argument.

To be fair he didn't make it up, human lizard brain is a widely discredited evolutionary theory that was utterly discredited within about 5 minutes of it coming out, 50 years ago. But he said it was a fact so.... must be I guess.

[Lauront]

Problem is this whole discussion is not "expression of disagreements" it's just making up buzzwords to push your hidden agenda. Both of the groups argue in a very weird way for or against wopvp, it's not even arguing it's just self reassuring justification they make themselves to protect their world view.
The first group is clearly scared of the challenge wopvp would bring (be it social or whatever) but this challenge is not real it's manufactured by their own fear of whatever scary movie they made for themselves. So they throw away buzzwords like "griefing" (which isn't real if for example you yourself "turn pvp on", just don't turn it on, just an example) "toxicity" just to push this scary movie they created. But this movie is still very detached from reality. And even if it wasn't detached from reality the thing that will have final say in this is the data on pvp activity not some movie someone produced inside their head.
The other group for some reason needs to justify that killing others is fun. Which is just fact. Challenging other players is fun. Completely destroying lower level player is fun. It's why people smurf in very competitive games. You shouldn't have to argue for this it's a fact. It's how human lizard brain works. Arguing for it or against it makes zero sense.

I agree with this.

[Kes13a]

Problem is this whole discussion is not "expression of disagreements" it's just making up buzzwords to push your hidden agenda. Both of the groups argue in a very weird way for or against wopvp, it's not even arguing it's just self reassuring justification they make themselves to protect their world view.
The first group is clearly scared of the challenge wopvp would bring (be it social or whatever) but this challenge is not real it's manufactured by their own fear of whatever scary movie they made for themselves. So they throw away buzzwords like "griefing" (which isn't real if for example you yourself "turn pvp on", just don't turn it on, just an example) "toxicity" just to push this scary movie they created. But this movie is still very detached from reality. And even if it wasn't detached from reality the thing that will have final say in this is the data on pvp activity not some movie someone produced inside their head.
The other group for some reason needs to justify that killing others is fun. Which is just fact. Challenging other players is fun. Completely destroying lower level player is fun. It's why people smurf in very competitive games. You shouldn't have to argue for this it's a fact. It's how human lizard brain works. Arguing for it or against it makes zero sense.

I do appreciate how one side is basically living in a fantasy world made up in their own heads as opposed to possible experience from other mmos that have had this in place while the side you obviously favour is all about "fun" which by any measurement is always a subjective reference. in case you need a translation, means that what some find fun, others do not. doesnt make either side running fantasy movies in their head however.

so I am not sure if you posted just to obliquely insult people not into forcing world pvp on a game that wasnt built for it, or just thought it was important to forward a lizards idea of fun.

[Fyrebrand]

So why did you (and others) roll on a PvP server in the first place?

Speaking from my own experience, World of Warcraft was my first MMORPG. I didn't really understand what the game was all about, just that all my friends were playing it and they wanted me to join them. I didn't know what a "PvE" versus a "PvP" server even was, I just knew what server my friends were on so I had to roll a character on that one. I knew there were two factions, Horde and Alliance, and the whole gimmick of the game was that those two sides were at war so I assumed players being able to freely kill each other was just a part of the game you couldn't opt out of. I played Horde, not because I wanted to, but because my friends played Horde. I played a Paladin because it seemed like some kind of armored fighter with a bit of magic, not because I knew I'd eventually get reluctantly shoehorned into my group's healer role (and be really bad at it).

I mean, there were definitely moments of the open-world PvP experience that were exciting. Those rare occasions when I'd have a rivalry with somebody of the opposing faction who was questing in the same area as me, and we'd kill each other back and forth when we could. Those times when we'd get a bit group together and try and raid an entire city and kill their leaders. When I'd see a high-level jerk ganking newbs and I'd swoop in to protect them and get revenge in their name. Just the perpetual sense of risk and danger, added a unique thrill to every moment out in the open. It certainly wasn't all bad. But one or two times where you're just trying to get quests done, and higher-level gangs of jerks perpetually hang around and kill you, and all the quest NPCs, and you basically can't get anything done or even play the game to any serious extent..? Yeah, that was quite enough of that. I've had my fill of those days, to last a lifetime. Whatever benefits there are to an open-PvP environment, I feel are vastly outweighed by the burdens and annoyances.

Many years later, after my friends and I had largely stopped playing WoW, I got a bit nostalgic and went back to the game to fool around on my own for a bit. That was when I actually got to choose a server, and lo and behold: "Wait, you can play on a NON-PVP SERVER!? WTF!? YES PLEASE!!!" Things went quite differently, when I had some past experiences under my belt and was finally able to make an informed decision for myself.

[Fyrebrand]

FFXIV won't be for everyone, so I'd rather it be for me than not for me.

I completely agree with this. There have been accusations that some FFXIV players are "gatekeeping" or that so-called "toxic positivity" is causing people to pretend FFXIV is 100% perfect and that we don't need any new features or improvements. I'm sure that happens, but on the flip side FFXIV has carved its own niche and become very successful for being what it is -- we don't need to draw in every single player, and absorb every feature that other popular games have adopted. We need a game that knows what it's about and is exceptional at it without compromise -- being competitive does not have to mean desperately copying what every other game does. You don't beat World of Warcraft by trying to be World of Warcraft, because we already have one of those and it's already the winner of that competition.

There's a ton of buzz about Asmongold trying FFXIV, and he is more than welcome to try it. I honestly hope he enjoys the game. However, I also honestly don't think he will enjoy the game because it doesn't seem like it's his kind of thing. He cringes at the aesthetics and the music, he doesn't seem to be interested in story, and basically it seems like what he wants is just more hardcore WoW raiding. Should FFXIV change itself to be more in line with what he likes, just because he is a popular streamer with a lot of clout? I don't think so, and I doubt he'd think that either.

I would rather FFXIV be the best FFXIV and the best MMORPG, not the second-best WoW.

[van_arn]

I completely agree with this. There have been accusations that some FFXIV players are "gatekeeping" or that so-called "toxic positivity" is causing people to pretend FFXIV is 100% perfect and that we don't need any new features or improvements. I'm sure that happens, but on the flip side FFXIV has carved its own niche and become very successful for being what it is -- we don't need to draw in every single player, and absorb every feature that other popular games have adopted. We need a game that knows what it's about and is exceptional at it without compromise -- being competitive does not have to mean desperately copying what every other game does. You don't beat World of Warcraft by trying to be World of Warcraft, because we already have one of those and it's already the winner of that competition.

There's a ton of buzz about Asmongold trying FFXIV, and he is more than welcome to try it. I honestly hope he enjoys the game. However, I also honestly don't think he will enjoy the game because it doesn't seem like it's his kind of thing. He cringes at the aesthetics and the music, he doesn't seem to be interested in story, and basically it seems like what he wants is just more hardcore WoW raiding. Should FFXIV change itself to be more in line with what he likes, just because he is a popular streamer with a lot of clout? I don't think so, and I doubt he'd think that either.

I would rather FFXIV be the best FFXIV and the best MMORPG, not the second-best WoW.

It's silly to think someone with the experience of a decade in another game can't offer feedback that could improve this game. So yes, XIV should change itself to be more in line with what someone like that would think, carefully, because it should be the best game XIV can be for everyone and not just a very cordoned-off niche that has happened to find their perfect place.

That mentality of ignoring the outside world is what gave us the disaster of 1.0.