Paladin balance changes suggestions

[AbremSev]

Uh...

Yes man, we're all just playing Paladin wrong, even in top play, you have the big brain on how it's played.

This is dumb, that's not what I think and you're just saying it that way to be a dick. It's not how I think the job should be played, that's how the devs think Paladin should be played which is why they gave Paladin Clemency. Obviously it's not good to use Clemency and nor should Paladins use it. That's a problem for how the job is designed that they're given a completely useless self-sustain ability.

[Ilenya]

This is dumb, that's not what I think and you're just saying it that way to be a dick. It's not how I think the job should be played, that's how the devs think Paladin should be played which is why they gave Paladin Clemency. Obviously it's not good to use Clemency and nor should Paladins use it. That's a problem for how the job is designed that they're given a completely useless self-sustain ability.

Devs at the very least used to not count Healer DPS for fights, which caused all *sorts* of silliness back when Cleric Stance was a thing. Healers at least are well aware that "What the devs (apparently) think" and "How the playerbase uses it" are two massively different things.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

2) Paladins are lacking in CDs for mitigation. In UCOB any time my group had a Paladin we always generated an entire extra bar of LB gauge just for having a Paladin in the group. That's how much additional damage Paladin takes compared to other tanks. I'm guessing Paladin has fewer mitigation CDs because their Clemency is so powerful. This kind of ends up going back to my first point, Paladins don't actually use Clemency outside of normal content.

IIRC, they get less personal mitigation due to the fact they have 1 extra raid mitigation tool instead. (veil + Passage vs every other tank only having a single raid CD.) If they got more personal mitigation, one of the two would have to be axed in exchange. Otherwise they'd just be as tanky as the rest and give more raid utility than the other 3, practically guaranteeing them a slot in any comp.

Also IIRC, DRK doesn't always have more mitigation than PLD does. Any fight that has physical tankbusters, DRK's dark mind is literally worthless for those buster's damage. (E1s, E4s, E6s, E8s, E10s, E12s, Ucob (flatten, Ravensbeak, Death Sentence, plummet, bahamut's claw)). Camouflage also loses the parry bonus if the buster is magic.

3) I'd like for Passage of Arms to get the same fix as AST's Collective Unconsciousness instead of needing to be channeled. The ability is already limited by the need to be positioned behind the PLD when it's used and right now it's just janky and not as competitive with the more versatile and consistently useful Heart of Light, Shake and Dark Missionary.

This I would definitely agree with though. Some nice QoL for Passage would be much appreciated.

Also, hps isn't really the most comparable thing as PLD is built to mitigate damage preemptively rather than recover it back. PLD has natural block while the other 3 tanks can't. So while they're not recovering HP through their normal rotation, they are naturally taking less damage from autos across a fight without factoring in CD usage. If PLD had the same hps as the other tanks, they'd be straight out way stronger at taking auto & residual damage through a fight due to having hps + block + parry.

[Ilenya]

Paladins are better at dealing with autos than other jobs just by having Blocks...

[AbremSev]

Paladins are better at dealing with autos than other jobs just by having Blocks...

In what Content? Paladin also has a scaling problem. They're way too strong in normal content and way too weak in Ultimate/Savage. They're just inferior to the other tanks when it comes to taking hits in high end content which is why nobody uses PLD for MT. Like really think about what you just said and ask yourself if that's true why PLD is never MT unless there's no other option? Keep in mind I'm only talking about for high end content.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

In what Content? Paladin also has a scaling problem. They're way too strong in normal content and way too weak in Ultimate/Savage. They're just inferior to the other tanks when it comes to taking hits in high end content which is why nobody uses PLD for MT. Like really think about what you just said and ask yourself if that's true why PLD is never MT unless there's no other option? Keep in mind I'm only talking about for high end content.

MT/OT hasn't been a thing for a long time now anyway. When 95% of tank busters have some sort of vuln that forces a tank swap and enmity is all but eliminated, there's only 'who's tanking at this moment and who isn't.'
Then plenty of the high end fights have both tanks simultaneously tanking (TEA: LL + liquid hand, BJ + CC, UCOB: Nael + Twin phase, Shiva: she autos both tanks during a certain form, Eden's Promise: her tank buster targets both tanks) or involve shared busters (TEA: Perfect Alexander's TB, UCOB: Ahk morn), further diluting MT/OT lines.

Also saying they're too weak is amusing, considering you can check a certain website that logs stuff to see the latest savage tier has about 2000 more PLD parses recorded than WAR or DRK...seems like they're a way more popular choice :^)

[AbremSev]

MT/OT hasn't been a thing for a long time now anyway. When 95% of tank busters have some sort of vuln that forces a tank swap and enmity is all but eliminated, there's only 'who's tanking at this moment and who isn't.'
Then plenty of the high end fights have both tanks simultaneously tanking (TEA: LL + liquid hand, BJ + CC, UCOB: Nael + Twin phase, Shiva: she autos both tanks during a certain form, Eden's Promise: her tank buster targets both tanks) or involve shared busters (TEA: Perfect Alexander's TB, UCOB: Ahk morn), further diluting MT/OT lines.

Also saying they're too weak is amusing, considering you can check a certain website that logs stuff to see the latest savage tier has about 2000 more PLD parses recorded than WAR or DRK...seems like they're a way more popular choice :^)

The job is popular for reasons that have nothing to do with how hard or easy they are to heal in the tiny portion of content that this actually matters. That's a healer problem instead of a tank one unless the content is literally unclearable for the job which it's not right now. Anyway my balance changes are about addressing that. TEA, UCOB, and Levi Unreal are the places where it becomes really obvious how squishy Paladin actually is right now and how much extra help they need to stay alive.

Additionally for your argument from popularity, the last savage raid tier didn't have any fights that did high sustained tank damage. To prove my point go minimum ilvl synch Ramuh e5s and have your PLD MT. You'll make your healers cry. Really the difference in healing requirement is noticeable on most fights if the PLD is MT compared to any other tank. That's why you never see PLD being MT if there's any other choice.

[lezard21]

"Oh a PLD balance thread, this might be an interesting read"

1) Paladin is currently balanced around players using Clemency a certain number of times per minute.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

"Oh a PLD balance thread, this might be an interesting read"

You beat me to it.
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