Dark Knight Megathread

[Danelo]

Pots can & will be tweaked even for the new ew builds.

The point was that they can do anything they want… if they choose to. The problem is that they haven’t in the past 6 years… and they still prob won’t.

I not-so-secretly hope DRK is abandoned in ew by the player base so she will have to re-evaluate their approach to it.

[ItMe]

84 - Scrap Enhanced Unmend.

But why though?

I actually think it's a nice step forward for DRK. I enjoy PLD because it has something it can do to stay relevant at range: it's lengthy ranged instant cast magic combo. The other tanks just kinda spam their version of Shield Lob and wish they had it that good
But now, with the enhancement to unmend, what DRK does at range is now dynamic.

Not just in that it now ​helps facilitate reengagement, but it also raises the skill ceiling just a little more because you need to keep an eye on your Plunge stacks so you don't set yourself up to overcap on them before you're able to dash back in (​especially since dashes are often held to be used in raid buffs I usually sit on one stack). One more small thing to watch. And considering how people comment on liking things they have to watch / keep track of I'm actually pretty surprised to hear people are getting so upset over this rather benign skill upgrade. I would have figured people would consider it good design, but earlier this week someone on these forums said it was a "slap in the face" and another said it "pissed them off."

If people aren't satisfied with the skill it might just need some tweaks, but unless it leads to some really cursed gameplay let's not just axe it.

[Bhearil]

But why though?

I actually think it's a nice step forward for DRK. I enjoy PLD because it has something it can do to stay relevant at range: it's lengthy ranged instant cast magic combo. The other tanks just kinda spam their version of Shield Lob and wish they had it that good
But now, with the enhancement to unmend, what DRK does at range is now dynamic.

Not just in that it now ​helps facilitate reengagement, but it also raises the skill ceiling just a little more because you need to keep an eye on your Plunge stacks so you don't set yourself up to overcap on them before you're able to dash back in (​especially since dashes are often held to be used in raid buffs I usually sit on one stack). One more small thing to watch. And considering how people comment on liking things they have to watch / keep track of I'm actually pretty surprised to hear people are getting so upset over this rather benign skill upgrade. I would have figured people would consider it good design, but earlier this week someone on these forums said it was a "slap in the face" and another said it "pissed them off."

If people aren't satisfied with the skill it might just need some tweaks, but unless it leads to some really cursed gameplay let's not just axe it.

Usually you use very few Unmends after the battle started and you can keep a charge stack since tanks get 2. Its a garbage passive, to say that it is extremely situational at best while being useless at worst means that its a waste of passive, same as improved Simulacrum wasting 2 passives instead of getting alll the effects on the last one and giving something useful with the first. Your reasoning is the very same as Monks Fist of Earth "Bu-but is a 10% mitigation is useful for aoes! Dont axe it!!" when I could count with one hand how many times it was useful from 2.0 to 5.4 and still have spare fingers

All tanks have evolved more or less on this expansion, but DRK looks like they got only 5 extra levels considering how garbastic the aditions are, even Warrior is on better state and their aditions were "meh" compared to GNB and specially PLD

[Shurrikhan]

Usually you use very few Unmends after the battle started and you can keep a charge stack since tanks get 2. Its a garbage passive, to say that it is extremely situational at best while being useless at worst means that its a waste of passive, same as improved Simulacrum wasting 2 passives instead of getting alll the effects on the last one and giving something useful with the first. Your reasoning is the very same as Monks Fist of Earth "Bu-but is a 10% mitigation is useful for aoes! Dont axe it!!" when I could count with one hand how many times it was useful from 2.0 to 5.4 and still have spare fingers

All tanks have evolved more or less on this expansion, but DRK looks like they got only 5 extra levels considering how garbastic the aditions are, even Warrior is on better state and their aditions were "meh" compared to GNB and specially PLD

Then first fill that space so to the brim that there is no room for that trait, or suggest its direct replacement, rather than starting with its removal. Starting with the removal is all drama and no pragmatism.

Yes, the trait needs to be stronger in order not to be a slap to the face, but the fact that so few Unmends are cast are specifically what allows for such a trait to be strong, if we were given that improved version (e.g. a full reset that still wouldn't be worth using rotationally, except as perhaps as a window ender if you knew you'd get no fewer Bloodspillers or Souleaters into the phase regardless, and therefore acts only as a QoL capacity in that you'd always be able to return quickly to the fight).

[Bhearil]

Then first fill that space so to the brim that there is no room for that trait, or suggest its direct replacement, rather than starting with its removal. Starting with the removal is all drama and no pragmatism.

Yes, the trait needs to be stronger in order not to be a slap to the face, but the fact that so few Unmends are cast are specifically what allows for such a trait to be strong, if we were given that improved version (e.g. a full reset that still wouldn't be worth using rotationally, except as perhaps as a window ender if you knew you'd get no fewer Bloodspillers or Souleaters into the phase regardless, and therefore acts only as a QoL capacity in that you'd always be able to return quickly to the fight).

Are we now devs? No, thats not our job, but since we are the (paying, mind you) customers we can say "this tea tastes like shit" and we dont have to go to the kitchen to teach them to brew tea properly. And removing that trait doesnt mean having 1 trait less, but having anything else that could be far more useful and engaging than the trait plus the 2 for 1 trait of Simulacrum that would have freed an extra trait for ANYTHING. DRK is a hot mess of issues but fixing at least some would have aleviated partially the problems (Living Dead is a big slap in the face moreso when Superbolide got buffed to 10 seconds now)

In any case there were dozens of great suggestions and feedback in the forums and look how much they take us in consideration, heck even japanese DRK players are pissed and dissapointed with the Endwalker DRK aditions. No wonder job devs like dps and hate tanks and healers. They really need more staff on the jobs instead the few current devs (2 or 4 for ALL the jobs dont remember the number now)

[Shurrikhan]

Are we now devs? No, thats not our job, but since we are the (paying, mind you) customers we can say "this tea tastes like shit" and we dont have to go to the kitchen to teach them to brew tea properly. And removing doesnt mean having 1 trait less.

But throwing out the tea isn't saying "the tea tastes like shit" so much as, very simply, "We don't want (this/your) tea."

Keep in mind the context here: Losing A has not necessitated a replacement, B, since HW, the last time every job had at least some addition every 2 levels. (And if there's a job that's going to trade something for nothing, it's DRK, after all.)

It could warrant a replacement, but in that case this deserves some further note to what ought to replace it or would be appreciated as a replacement. Or, mightn't we just, quite plainly say "replace" instead of "get rid of"? Sure, it lacks (rightly deserved, admittedly) vengeful drama, but shouldn't getting what we want be larger goal? (And we've already seen where raw drama alone, for all its rhetorical effect, takes us in terms of design.)

In any case there were dozens of great suggestions and feedback in the forums and look how much they take us in consideration, heck even japanese DRK players are pissed and dissapointed with the Endwalker DRK aditions

I've never argued otherwise. Actually good suggestions have been made and should be paid more attention to.

I'm just, in turn, disappointed by the "Remove X" posts that pass themselves off as practical suggestions or feedback when the skill or trait in question is neither outright negative nor is, so far as any dev communication could possibly imply, taking the place of anything else. It's just a smaller-scale "Delete DRK!" -- aimed more at drama than product. Is it really so hard to ask that X be replaced (e.g., with something along particular agreed-upon criteria) than just removed?

[ItMe]

Usually you use very few Unmends after the battle started and you can keep a charge stack since tanks get 2. Its a garbage passive, to say that it is extremely situational at best while being useless at worst means that its a waste of passive, same as improved Simulacrum wasting 2 passives instead of getting alll the effects on the last one and giving something useful with the first. Your reasoning is the very same as Monks Fist of Earth "Bu-but is a 10% mitigation is useful for aoes! Dont axe it!!" when I could count with one hand how many times it was useful from 2.0 to 5.4 and still have spare fingers

All tanks have evolved more or less on this expansion, but DRK looks like they got only 5 extra levels considering how garbastic the aditions are, even Warrior is on better state and their aditions were "meh" compared to GNB and specially PLD

Sooo... it's because a button is given a situational buff... we should axe the buff?
I don't follow that logic.
If it isn't good enough then we should ask for it to be tweaked and further improved.

Maybe increase the cooldown reduction on Plunge.
Maybe buff your next Plunge.
Etc.

But if DRK's additions are "meh," as you put it, we should be asking for more. Not asking for things to be removed.
You've even called it "a garbage passive," but not because it is a bad skill but because it isn't good enough. Because it is "useless at worst."
It's not like this situational tech is even coming with button bloat like what happened with Monk.

I really don't understand this attitude.

[Shin96]

Sooo... it's because a button is given a situational buff... we should axe the buff?
I don't follow that logic.
If it isn't good enough then we should ask for it to be tweaked and further improved.

Maybe increase the cooldown reduction on Plunge.
Maybe buff your next Plunge.
Etc.

But if DRK's additions are "meh," as you put it, we should be asking for more. Not asking for things to be removed.
You've even called it "a garbage passive," but not because it is a bad skill but because it isn't good enough. Because it is "useless at worst."
It's not like this situational tech is even coming with button bloat like what happened with Monk.

I really don't understand this attitude.

NO enhanced Unmend.

Why does literally every other effin job get attention and love. Did the developers at any point in time consider this addition is ridiculous.

Dude, how about upgraded Plunge? Make Plunge available at an earlier level with no charges to give people something to use, y'know, when it's most important. Then give us an upgraded version later on.

But nooooooooo, enhanced Unmend. That is what they want! And the dev with this idea got a promotion too most likely. What a twisted joke, if they hate us then just tell us to GTFO this game. I would appreciate the honesty behind that.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

same as improved Simulacrum wasting 2 passives instead of getting alll the effects on the last one and giving something useful with the first.

Playing Devil's advocate, Enhanced Simulacrum has an actually important effect in regards to balancing that is also served by the various 'mastery' traits like red magic mastery, lance mastery, etc. across several jobs in EW - Giving the Simulacrum the potency it does at 88 as the default would make it far more powerful in level 80-86 content. An extra 50 potency per hit (assuming new base LS is 250) isn't anything to snuff at, especially when with the redux of physical weapon damage causing the potencies of every physical job to be nerfed across the board to compensate for physical attacks doing much higher damage now, Living Shadow's 300 potency in EW is much stronger than its 300 potency in SHB. (This assumes Esteem also continues to ignore tank mastery in EW though, as a caveat.)

Enhanced Unmend is definitely not a useful trait with their current fight design though and definitely needs to be replaced. My own suggestion would be for it to help alleviate DRK's issue of little self sustain through health by doing one of the following with the level 84 trait:

1) Enhanced Blood Weapon (lvl 84)
-Restore HP with each successful weaponskill or spell delivered (effect doesn't stack with multiple targets)
-Cure potency: 300

2) Enhanced Abyssal Drain (lvl 84)
-Reduces the CD on Abyssal Drain to 30s, while increasing the cure potency to 600 and granting it a 2nd charge.

Both of the above should be obvious, giving DRK more direct lifesteal by means of Blood Weapon or making Abyssal Drain a bit more of a free-form tool once every 30s at half potency compared to say, the other 1200 potency healing tools like Aurora & Equil which is at 1-minute intervals. Ideally in my 2nd trait they'd also just remove the potency on Abyssal and change it to a pure self healing tool to disincentivize using it as just another OGCD during burst windows.

Are you happy getting enhanced Unmend and a new skill called "Shadowbringer", which by animation alone is a knock-off of FoS? Are you happy using Salted Earth and popping some bubbles out of the ground? Again, re-used animation from Dark Missionary.

This isn't exclusive to DRK though; with a keen eye you'll quickly notice Double Down is a re-skinned Prominence from PLD. The third cut is stripped and the character is angled slightly more downward, but the character animation is nearly identical.
The end thrust of Blade of Truth is literally copy-paste of the thrust part of Eye gouge. Blade of Faith & Blade of Valor both appear to be using a modified, sped up Howling Fist animation.
WAR is the only one I can't discern if they're re-using animations with. Though for primal rend, I would likely guess it's not an actual animation during the jump, just the WAR in a static pose with a simple rotational velocity attribute applied to it until the very end.

A lot of the tank animations in EW are being recycled from somewhere, just given new VFX to mask the recycling. It's more likely their development cycle is extremely tight due to all the setbacks they've had so they're recycling what they can.

snip

Our thread is growing faster sure, but I'd be more interested to see how many posts in their topics are filled with non-useful posts like 'delete DRK' without giving any sort of constructive criticism vs ours. Not that our thread doesn't have good constructive criticism, but if they employ word scraping programs, there's quite a fair share of dead posts in this thread as far as information gathering.

[ItMe]

Our thread is growing faster sure, but I'd be more interested to see how many posts in their topics are filled with non-useful posts like 'delete DRK' without giving any sort of constructive criticism vs ours. Not that our thread doesn't have good constructive criticism, but if they employ word scraping programs, there's quite a fair share of dead posts in this thread as far as information gathering.

Yeah, that's one of the big unfortunate differences between us.
I went back and did some more skimming (which is why I'm responding a few days later haha). I've gone through about a 8th of the thread, skipping about and sampling posts from all across it/ And I think I saw 1 posts that looked off topic (but maybe I just didn't understand it) and only 2 posts where people were just venting, saying they were sad, and contributing nothing else.


I also noticed that people don't randomly swing in out of nowhere and go

"I'm just gonna post this and hope the devs take notice."

or

"Here are my adjustments and additions."

And then drop a mountain of text, sometimes pages long, about their homebrew kit for DRK and ask for people for feedback instead of discussing the job as it is / could be in game. I don't think I saw a single post like that. The closest it got to that was something more akin to how we try and sum things up by saying "let's list the items I think could be improved" or "I have a few requests." But the "what do you think of my [job]" kind of stuff (for better or worse) seem to get their own threads.


You're right Daeriion, they've def got us beat in that department : (
And after actually spending time looking through their threads... yeah... they are def much cleaner than ours. I can totally see both that SQEX is getting feedback from the forums and how someone would use them to best gather feedback in the first place.




Also, if I may go on a tangent for a sec, the weirdest thing about it all is how differently they communicate to each other. I'm struggling to put it clearly, but maybe this will convey the difference:

Here on the English forums we do a lot of quoting each other. Person A says something, and Person B clips their quote and directly responds to something they've said. And the way we format discussions is directly responding to things people have said to get a kind of back and forth going that people drop in and out of.

But over there, someone will say they should bring Scourge back, and the conversation about Scourge will largely be people is largely people posting about Scourge in a way that loosely directs the conversation without people needing to respond specifically to each other.
Like, they still quote each other, and respond directly to each other's ideas. But that's not the primary way the discussion is... hosted? Even when Person A directly responds to Person B, A won't quote B if B's post was the previous one, and a lot of small things like that.
Writing that way is def facilitated by most of their posts being literal hours apart, as opposed to here where I've seen hot threads get 3 pages in an afternoon.

Not that either is a better or worse way of doing things. But man I am not used to reading discussions like that and it made it kinda weird to follow but also really... natural(?) because each post works off of previous ones more generally in a way that's kind of more reflective of spoken language than written communication.





Also, someone there says they wished TBN made a noise when it broke and that's a great idea and now I really want that too!