Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

I think that they really nailed it with Reaper. If they'd used that design on DRK, it would be a fantastic tank to play.

I worry that Reaper will end up more convolution and less actual complexity -- in much the same vein as DRG's 11 weaponskills' internal balance and (lack of) modularity only truly amount to at most three possible decisions (ST-melee, ST-ranged, or AoE), and only in the GCD before starting into either path -- but the visual flow of it all does appear exactly what DRK deserved.

[Lyth]

It doesn't really have to be very elaborate or technically complex. It just needs to be engaging. Reaper is an entirely resource driven job with a burst window that that is resource gated, not time gated. The burst window itself transforms your actions into new ones, with a 1.5s GCD for players who enjoy a bit of button mashing. It's even got the most interesting gap closer.

Think about what it would be like if you had DRK designed that way. Build up blood gauge to enter Delirium every 60 seconds, complete with that shadowy-flame effect that players have been asking for since Heavensward. Transform your base combo into upgraded actions with a super short GCD. Maybe they hit multiple times and restore MP. Maybe your character's base movement speed is faster with it up. Every second Delirium window, Living Shadow splinters off of you and does whatever actions you did during the last Delirium window. Finish with something flashy, where you and your shadow(s) hit the target multiple times to end the window.

The whole point of resource driven jobs is to build up gauge to do something fun. That's what makes them more entertaining than your standard 44-step fixed rotation job. Nobody cares about how mathematically complex your spreadsheet-designed job is when they're busy mashing skills out at triple the APM.

There's also something joyful about having movement skills that you can just use when you feel like it. Imagine if DRK had something like a personal only Lost Impetus (complete with a shadowy speed boost) as our own Chi Torpedo. These sorts of abilities are great to use in fights. But perhaps more importantly, they're fun to use all the time. Do you think that you're going to see Reapers just walking around the map? Or are they going to be blinking all around the place?

I would have thought that the need for engaging and fun gameplay would be obvious to the game designers who actually play their own game™. But then again, these are the same people who designed Living Dead, so they're clearly not playing DRK.

[Shurrikhan]

I would have thought that the need for engaging and fun gameplay would be obvious to the game designers who actually play their own game™.

I of course agree with this, but you've lost me on what's just so different about backloaded (readied-later or resource-based) vs. frontloaded (readied-immediately or purely CD-based) skills.

It doesn't really have to be very elaborate or technically complex. It just needs to be engaging. Reaper is an entirely resource driven job with a burst window that that is resource gated, not time gated.

I don't get what's supposed to be so satisfyingly different about the prior. Those resources are still ultimately generated... over time -- exactly as are Oath Gauge, Beast Gauge, Blood Gauge, Kenki, Aspected Mana, Heat, ShB Lilies, and so on -- on a job that still has no reason to outright prefer Skill Speed.

As such, it merely is one small factor reducing how inferiorly Skill Speed stacks up against Crit and DHit while punishing the job for any encounter-based downtime and reducing initial burst (and thus, on average, skewing job performance negatively as encounter lengths decrease). Apart from running out of oGCDs to press a bit later into the opener than most, it's only going to feel as different from frontloaded resources as will its fit to any given fight -- i.e., only as noticeable as are its negatives.

The burst window itself transforms your actions into new ones, with a 1.5s GCD for players who enjoy a bit of button mashing.

So would any no-bloat reiteration of Hypercharge, but it's far from satisfying to many a MCH even despite its adding massive cooldown reduction to its core oGCDs per window-unlocked action cast. So does Nostrand already, and it's still less exciting than even just HW Geirskogul.

The whole point of resource driven jobs is to build up gauge to do something fun. That's what makes them more entertaining than your standard 44-step fixed rotation job.

We've had that, though, and all it's done is extend the number of GCDs considered as part of the "opener" to the later use of those resources before then repeating itself in the exact same fashion as any purely CD-based job, except in that its CDs have no ability to shift earlier relative to our GCDs over periods of forced downtime.


Don't get me wrong; I like the delayed phase that resource-based burst skills provide -- so that we aren't so lopsidedly peak or trough -- but they're hardly unique in that regard (as just having a higher opening burst apm and a "secondary" burst phase every other or every third "full" burst still provides the very same playflow), nor is the effect that significant. The best that can be said of it is the complexity involved in banking those resources for a CD-driven burst phase, but even that, short of wanting particular SkS tiers in order to milk out some new alignment, is as easily provided by having a secondary charge on certain offensive abilities that we'd want to skillfully guide into our CD-based damage modifiers.


Tl;dr: If we're going to have a resource gauge, by all means, let's make better use of said resources, but there's unique or outright better about skills or playflow gated by resources generated. More than needing a better flow of resources, per se, we just need more to do.

Imagine if DRK had something like a personal only Lost Impetus (complete with a shadowy speed boost) as our own Chi Torpedo.

I'd love this.

[Jakulo]

Strangely I feel like dark knight’s kit can function a lot more like gunbreaker’s with a little tweak. Currently gnb can hold two cartridges from their main combo and they have to spend some of it to not over cap outside of burst windows. Drk right can max out darkside with two edge/floods and we have a insane amount of overcap on the timer. And we don’t ever want to use edge outside of burst windows because of their massive potency and our lack luster mana generation outside of blood weapon. So if we increase drk’s mp generation a noticeable amount while lowering the potency of edge considerably, we won’t feel pressured to stuff all of it in a tight window. All we need now is a seperate skill that cost mp but don’t extend darkside with a higher potency.

Say we also throw the blood gauge out the window and have bloodspiller and quietus use up darkside time, 15 seconds for bloodspiller and 10 seconds for quietus. They will be on a separate recast times, 10 seconds for bloodspiller and 5 seconds for quietus. Delirium can remain the same where the cost is negated but it also lowers the recast time to our regular gcds. Living shadow will also cost darkside equal to its duration but darkside won’t go down for said duration so it can serve as a big burst window.

I’ve seen this being said by others but shadowbringer should have been our lv. 80 capstone along with living shadow. Living shadow is basically automaton queen but there is no way for us to end it early for down time and there's around 2-3 seconds left after esteem’s final attack which would have been perfect for a synced double shadowbringer.

[Duskane]

not sure why people think reaper is complex
its just machinist with fell cleaves(its only positionals are gauge spenders)

[Ignimortis]

complex?
Do your first set of globals.
Then do the next unlocked set of globals.
Spend acquired resources from your 2nd gauge, to have a powerful burst of a few globals.

Doesn't sound much more complex than GNB or PLD, to me.

not sure why people think reaper is complex
its just machinist with fell cleaves(its only positionals are gauge spenders)

Really? The ability graphs seemed quite intertwined, especially with three spendable gauges at once. Still, it was merely an assumption, I can't actually say anything until I've tried it out hands-on. If it flows naturally in the game like MCH does, that'd be great.

[Shin96]

I don't think using Reaper for a potential 7.0 template for DRK is a good idea.

Most people here are writing fanfiction at this point. The likelihood of them adopting some idea out of the forums seems strange to me. The bigger question is wether or not the job is fun.. is it? For me it isn't.

The developers and the responsible job designer have to come up with something unique or mildly interesting. I leave everything up to their imagination. Now, they are talented people so I don't see why not.

Potency issues here and there, balancing and whatnot, the job aesthetic and animations are just lazy at this point. Has anyone ever mentioned this? I mean you could theoretically replace every skill with Bloodspiller, but would you end up playing it? The sound effects and animations play a huge role in visual satisfaction. I don't feel inherently powerful when I'm playing DRK. The gameplay itself builds up to something but fades into nothingness with a whimper. How about they include the use of our greatsword more instead of FoS 2 with Shadowbringer. You have such a heavy weapon and aside from Bloodspiller and Quietus I don't feel I'm physically active all that much. That's just my opinion however.

Anyway, I would be happy with almost anything but please don't waste the potential of this job with uninspiring reworks just for the sake of accessibility. That's an excuse to avoid work where it's needed.

[Ryaduera]

I don't think using Reaper for a potential 7.0 template for DRK is a good idea.

Most people here are writing fanfiction at this point. The likelihood of them adopting some idea out of the forums seems strange to me. The bigger question is wether or not the job is fun.. is it? For me it isn't.

The developers and the responsible job designer have to come up with something unique or mildly interesting. I leave everything up to their imagination. Now, they are talented people so I don't see why not.
-snip-
Anyway, I would be happy with almost anything but please don't waste the potential of this job with uninspiring reworks just for the sake of accessibility. That's an excuse to avoid work where it's needed.

While I agree it's basically fanfiction, saying the devs don't get anything out of it is not accurate. While they will certainly not implement any player-made changes for very obvious reasons, they can look at a generalization and see what is consistent in the players ideas of what makes the job more fun. Everyones individual solution has a niche that fits their own fantasy of what they want from the job but they all might have something in common that shows what players are craving from the job design that we they players aren't quite able to articulate by saying we don't like it. Saying people putting their own ideas in the ring is a waste of time just has no backing since players doing so provides more feedback to the dev team than "x is not fun I don't like it." The players are the ones experiencing it the most and are able to find the kinks the easiest. That's why there's always a balance patch on x.1

For example most proposed changes address either a lack in GCD's or put some thought into resource management, meaning those are the two areas where something is lacking to make the gameplay more interesting. It's important the devs know where the issue is in a more exact format than being told something is bad. "Why do they want these specific GCD's? What about the resource management do they think is missing? How can we fix it properly within our image of the game and the class?" Those are the questions we want them asking themselves rather than directing generalized statements of discontentment. "What is it you don't like about it" and "what would you do to fix it" are both incredibly helpful questions for devs of any project, not just video games, can and in fact should ask. Project managers in all fields ask both of these questions to their clientele, colleagues, and subbordinates. At least, if it's one worth working for and supporting.

[Shin96]

...

People ask for many different things. What's more valueable is straight-up saying what sucks about this job.

For me everything sucks about this job. I don't care how strong it is specifically, if I was in the mood of dealing more damage I'd play a DPS. At least with Ninja I mostly end up being top player in my party.

Get rid off the current Dark Arts design. Introduce the older DA lite. Don't make it too punishing on the player but essentially it unpacks different attacks with each use while you go with your MP combo. Add a dot to spice things up, I mean GNB did that in addition to an AoE DoT. Add a 4th combo similiar to Storm's Eye with a different property attached to it, i.e. a small amount of MP regen in exchange for getting attacked. Blood Weapon should have charges while giving us skill speed to enhance the flair of your base combo. You could also add HP regen to it as a special property. Abyssal Drain needs a comeback into your AoE rotation as well.

Delirium needs a change. No more stacks or IR knock-off. Go back to the drawing board and demolish 5.0 DRK. I have more words to use for this rework, but it would get me banned on this forum. Anyway, if they cannot give us meaningful or interesting gameplay, at least give us back the edginess that's sorely missing. Now we have Reaper which basically obliterates DRK's appeal. At this point it would have made more sense to delete this job in its entirety than giving us enhanced Unmend for a lack of a better term.

In my eyes, this job is compromised. It's in a dying state with a lack of life support. It basically lost all flair and style while giving its unique aspects to every other tank. You have virtually no-self sustain. Remind me why I would pick this tank if not to make my life harder.

[Ryaduera]

snip.

Both questions are equally as valuable, but seeing as how you criticized one of those very questions and then proceeded to answer it here has me very confused as to why you want others to stop making their own suggestions as well. All opinions are valid and have the same goal; make DRK fun again