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  1. #4091
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
    Posts
    1,118
    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I have mostly final version of my own personal wishlist for Dark Knight rework, with an attempt made at compromising at what some other people would want. It is meant to be read and responded to in one go, and if you don't understand it the first time, take the time to read it as many times as you need to fully understand it, ESPECIALLY the Dark Arts section, and MAYBE the Darkside section as well.

    (Slight rework + Quality of Life) Make Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details). Would also need to apply these affects to Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Souleater. For those who still want the lingering DoT field, Salt and Darkness can apply Salted Earth as a combo bonus.

    (Major Rework + Quality of Life) Make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste(would probably need to make this effect universal for all tanks in some way) which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside upgrade into Delirium to where it generates a Dark Arts stack every 15 seconds indicated by the Darkside timer(or gauge as the devs called it) and have Delirium become Living Shadow A.K.A. True Darkside with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300(would also need to make universal for all tanks in some way because Tank Mastery Trait is just THAT BAD), and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow. Basically I just want to turn and maintain Darkside in and out of of combat with the haste effect of Heavensward/Stormblood Blood Weapon. For those who still want the summon pet mechanic, add a new ability called Summon Shadow and its duration and AI needs to be more like a Trust/Duty Support NPC that does Tank mechanics, give it an AoE Rescue for specific group mechanics, but CANNOT be used while at the same time as Living Shadow and should Esteem be KO'd, it grants Living Shadow automatically, or just keep as is right now which is basically a summon pet for 20+ seconds takes forever to wake up, and is not affected by Darkside bonuses.

    (Major rework + Quality of Life) Bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP each, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, I just wish the MP spenders were GCDs, and I wish they gave Blood gauge, and restored HP equal to damage dealt per hit (see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details) and were DPS neutral in single target to Blood gauge spender at the start and ramps up, and you could make these share 1 button space like Gnashing Fang combo or Confiteor combo. Could also add a predecessor to Shadowbringer at level 62 with 80 less potency than Shadowbringer. Make Edge of Darkness/Shadow become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details), and you could also make these share 1 button. Make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and boost its potency, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS role action Bloodbath for more details) and boost its potency, and people would would try to find a use for these. Could also keep Abyssal Drain an oGCD with 2 charges on 30 second recast timer. Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat. The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead. Could also have Dark Arts reduce recast timers of MP spenders to 1.5 seconds. Additionally could also make Souleater and Salt and Darkness generate a Dark Arts stack if you have ONLY 2 stacks of Dark Arts.

    (Something new) Bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5%(or damage enemies receive to better understand it) and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal to players by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons. Not good for when bosses become non-targetable to keep it balanced. Could also have it deal damage and make the recast timer 30 seconds but the duration is 10-ish seconds.

    (Quality of Life) Have Dark Mind get the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters. Also give Dark Missionary the Addle treatment on the off chance there is physical raidwide, and by extension Heart of Light since the effect is copy-pasted on Gunbreaker already.

    (Slight rework + Quality of Life) Just make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be a better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown. Yes I am aware that the other tanks would complain about their invuln not being as long as Living Dead but that's the point, since we all know that the devs would give the other tanks a 20 second duration on their invuln as well..

    All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have a massive oGCD spam during the course of fights, and feel (and look) a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward, with a lot more opportunities to pop a defensive or utility during burst... This would also address the button bloat issue, as well as introducing older abilities to people who did not play Heavensward when it was relevant, while still introducing new abilities, for both earlier in Dark Knight leveling and the obvious new abilities the we might be getting in the next expansion, and make leveling Dark Knight from 50-60 feel less braindead to an extent, because spamming 1-2-3 for more than 10 minutes might cause some kind of brain rot...
    (1)
    Last edited by DRKoftheAzure; 11-21-2023 at 02:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  2. #4092
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,825
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    I have mostly final version of my own personal wishlist for Dark Knight rework, with an attempt made at compromising at what some other people would want. It is meant to be read and responded to in one go, and if you don't understand it the first time, take the time to read it as many times as you need to fully understand it, ESPECIALLY the Dark Arts section, and MAYBE the Darkside section as well.

    (Slight rework + Quality of Life) Make Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details). Would also need to apply these affects to Unleash, Stalwart Soul, Hard Slash, Syphon Strike, and Souleater.
    ...Again, Stalwart Soul already restores MP and gives 20 Blood. Your MP and Blood gen from your AoE combo is already a whopping 50% faster than generation from your single target combo. If you turned S&D into a third step of your AoE combo likewise for MP and Blood, you'd either have to nerf the Blood generated by StS and S&D or it would then be double the generation of your ST combo, which then has further tuning implications, especially for sustained combat (since you'll have heavily nerfed DRK's AoE burst unless badly overtuning our AoE continuous damage).

    No job is going to get a constant, passive Bloodbath at any significant percentage, or can the job's spenders hit much harder than pool noodles if you so greatly increase resource generation by having literally every GCD generate HP, MP, and Blood. That's not a "slight" rework, nor merely "quality of life". That's a massive shift away from dynamism (or, towards each GCD's time having potency more similar to any other GCD / flattening DRK's damage distribution).

    (Major Rework + Quality of Life) Make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside upgrade into Delirium to where it generates a Dark Arts stack every 15 seconds indicated by the Darkside timer(or gauge as the devs called it) and have Delirium become Living Shadow A.K.A. True Darkside with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow
    Living Shadow can afford to hit for 350 potency per tick (~291 ppgcd) only because it's up for at most a mere sixth of the time. You cannot replace it with a constant aura that deals up to as much free potency at all times without nerfing the job's base potencies in turn (let alone atop a constant 25% Haste buff that would inflate the relative value of that added potency to ~133-400 potency per original GCD).

    Snip
    You have flattened out the offensive kit into a far more mindless and muddled churn. More specifically, you have...
    • chopped up almost every higher-ppgcd attack to instead be done across multiple middling GCDs,

    • flattened out the distribution of resource generation almost entirely and likely inflated it to high hell,

    • given almost no way to actually spend resource faster than one gains them,

    • removed every oGCD attack to instead turn them into GCD combos (Salt and Darkness now reduced to a AoE combo 3rd step redundant that at best alternates Shadowbringer 3-step combo with Dark Passenger and Flood, while Carve and Spit forms a combo with Edge and Bloodspiller that at best alternates with the standard combo, reducing virtually all burst and dynamics into A-B pairs each for ST and AoE...

      ...which would probably be nearer to A-B-B-B trios in practice due to sheer amount of resource and cost nullifiers generated, making them identical to Warrior play except needing almost double the button count to pull off an equal extent of decision-making and having lost our actual spender burst to support that),
    • generally made most GCD builders and spenders alike redundant and conflicting with one another...

    • ...all to situate an unnecessarily convoluted and flattened out take on Blood (costs of 20-15-15 Blood at a time in some RDM mirror), and Dark Arts (tripling its cost nullifications, each of which matter far less now that you've made their spenders GCDs),

    • ...and to generally punt balance out of your local galaxy (passive +100 to 300 potency per GCD atop a +15-25% passive Attack Speed increase, before even accounting for the excess resource) in what I wish was satire.

    You're free to want what you'd want, but... I don't think I'd be alone in wanting almost none of this.

    __________


    The "This is okay, actually" portion:
    • Dark Mind getting some value against physical damage.
    • Living Dead just becomes a Holmgang with built-in hefty Bloodbath. (Though, no, it shouldn't become a truly 20s invuln.)
    (0)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-19-2023 at 04:37 AM.

  3. #4093
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
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    1,118
    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    [*]flattened out the distribution of resource generation almost entirely and likely inflated it to high hell,

    [*]given almost no way to actually spend resource faster than one gains them,
    That is the point of a resource management job. To manage resources effectively. Which is my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    [*]removed every oGCD attack to instead turn them into GCD combos (Salt and Darkness now reduced to a AoE combo 3rd step redundant that at best alternates Shadowbringer 3-step combo with Dark Passenger and Flood, while Carve and Spit forms a combo with Edge and Bloodspiller that at best alternates with the standard combo, reducing virtually all burst and dynamics into A-B pairs each for ST and AoE...

    ...which would probably be nearer to A-B-B-B trios in practice due to sheer amount of resource and cost nullifiers generated, making them identical to Warrior play except needing almost double the button count to pull off an equal extent of decision-making and having lost our actual spender burst to support that), [*]generally made most GCD builders and spenders alike redundant and conflicting with one another...

    [*]...all to situate an unnecessarily convoluted and flattened out take on Blood (costs of 20-15-15 Blood at a time in some RDM mirror), and Dark Arts (tripling its cost nullifications, each of which matter far less now that you've made their spenders GCDs),
    So you don't want a 1.5 GCD for specific actions that attempts to keep the identity of high APM tank then...? A simple yes or no question would be nice to have. You don't even need to go into detail for your reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    The "This is okay, actually" portion:
    • Dark Mind getting some value against physical damage.
    • Living Dead just becomes a Holmgang with built-in hefty Bloodbath. (Though, no, it shouldn't become a truly 20s invuln.)
    So what about Dark Missionary...? I find it funny that you forgot to mention that. I also DO see Warriors complaining about not having a 20 second invuln because 10 seconds isn't enough, if given the chance, which they have had PLENTY of opportunities to do so, and it's not too late for them start that trend now.
    (0)
    Last edited by DRKoftheAzure; 11-19-2023 at 05:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  4. #4094
    Player
    Marxam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,284
    Character
    Blackiron Tarkus
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    The only rework I would like to see is DRK capitalize on the "charge stacks" to become the "charge tank" with Dark Arts being the new 3k mp spender. DA will be introduced at the lvl 60 cap. Imagine if Dark Arts was a 10 sec recast that augments the next applicable skill used. It has a duration of 8 secs so you can use it more proactively i.e. can be used before hard slash and skill be up to DA souleater in your combo. Next implement two charges to these skills:

    -TBN (no longer costs mp, same recast timer 15 sec)
    -Oblation (unchanged)
    -Edge/Flood (30 sec recast)
    -Plunge (unchanged)
    -Dark Mind (same recast)
    -Shadowbringer (unchanged)
    -C&S and AD (same recast)

    Finally have DA affect only a small amount of skills instead of how it was in 4.0. In the current meta, DA would only serve a similar function to Infuriate. A boost to dmg/healing. These are the skills it should only affect:

    -Souleater (added effect to shorten recast of Edge/Flood shadow by 15 secs)
    -Stalwart Soul (added effect of healing potency, no longer restores mp)
    -TBN (effect of giving free edge/flood changed to putting a scourge dot on enemy)
    -Oblation (increase duration and potency by 50%)

    These are the types of changes I would like to see for DRK while finally giving it some quirk that is different from other tanks and some semblance of identity without losing too much of that ogcd spam that it seems to relish in. The idea of DA is reintroduce a concept that DRK used to have, which was utility, but instead of things like blinds or haste its much more immediate impact. Putting two charges gives DRK a level of flexibility and optimization no other tank has currently. For example in HH the DRK can DA oblation both tanks at the same time, then pop TBN back to back for more mitigation.
    (0)
    Last edited by Marxam; 11-19-2023 at 06:18 AM.

  5. #4095
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
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    1,118
    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Wouldn't work because of the defenders of Dark Knight oGCD spam will defiantly and loudly say "No!" in the most convoluted way possible.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  6. #4096
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    12,825
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    That is the point of a resource management job. To manage resources effectively. Which is my point.
    Your suggestions make "resource management" about as vital to Blood and MP function as it presently is to Darkside. Which is my point.

    So you don't want a 1.5 GCD for specific actions that attempts to keep the identity of high APM tank then...? A simple yes or no question would be nice to have.
    This has already been explained in detail. You need only actually read the answers to the questions you give.

    But, if we're to go with false binaries alone...

    -> So you don't want even a single oGCD attack regardless of implications on weave space or APM then...? A simple yes or no question would be nice to have.

    So what about Dark Missionary...? I find it funny that you forgot to mention that.
    If what you call the "Addle treatment" is fine for the one, why wouldn't it be for the other?

    I also DO see Warriors complaining about not having a 20 second invuln because 10 seconds isn't enough, if given the chance, which they have had PLENTY of opportunities to do so, and it's not too late for them start that trend now.
    Either you're failing to detect their sarcasm or you're listening to the very last people design should placate. Warriors are not unique in lacking a 20s invuln. Living Dead is not a 20s invuln. 20s invulns are not a trend we should start, ever, even if it isn't "too late" to do so.

    ________________________________________

    Countersuggestions, I guess, since it may seem rude to only critique:

    GENERAL CHANGES
    • Client's action lock-out timers (the period after using any action for which another action cannot be used) are no longer reset by receiving a confirmation message from the server (ping no longer increases the uptime costs of each action).
    • The action lock-out timer of potions has been reduced to the more standard 0.6 seconds.
    • Both damage nullification (barrier HP) and periodic damage to be taken (total expected DoT damage) is now shown on Parameter, Target, Target of Target, and Party List HP bars.
    • Parameter, Target, Target of Target, and Party List HP bars now change color and glow slightly while the unit to whom that health bar belongs is invulnerable.
    • Tanks gain a 3D visual effect during their invulns which pulses and then rapidly shrinks over the last fifth of their duration.
    • Dark Knight additionally gains a 3D misty/shadowy skull over its head while afflicted with Walking Dead.
    • Rampart removed. That mitigation is instead rolled into each Tank's job-specific kit. (Extra charge and reduced CD on Bulwark, Camouflage, Dark Mind, and Thrill of Battle.)
    • Tank Stances now begin on by default and Provoke further forces the target to target you and doubles your threat generated against the target for 6 seconds or until replaced by another Provoke. Tank attacks made from the enemies' rear deal 30% less Enmity and from the sides deal 15% less Enmity. This forgoes the need ever to take Tank Stance off and make Shirk even more obviously useless. Consequently, Shirk has been removed.
    • Low Blow gains a second charge and now also silences. Its recast time has been reduced to 20s.
    • That's 4 needless tank buttons now saved for better uses.


    DARK KNIGHT CHANGES
    • Edge/Flood replaced with a revised form of Dark Arts that follows up the prior action instead of buffing the next. In this way, we technically get ~16 different possible spenders [~12 attacks and ~4 defensives] with a single button instead of 2 possible spenders for 2 buttons. All carry some degree of utility, with only 3 being rotationally obligatory (Scourge after Heavy Slash per 30s, Soul-Sunder after Carve and Spit per 60s, and Salt and Darkness after Salted Earth once per 90s). This still costs 3k MP at a time.

      Apart from those 3 rotationally-obligatory actions, Dark Arts typically grants about 10 potency per %MP consumed (~300p per offensive Dark Arts), down from 15.3, making it less costly to spend defensively.

    • Dark Dance trait added, functioning much like the existing Dark Arts but much more flexibly and serving to grant roughly a free cast each of defensive and offensive spenders per minute. It causes your MP-spending defensive actions to each nullify up to 3000 MP that would otherwise be spent on an attack while you are below 50% MP, based on the amount of damage nullified by the defensive use of MP, and each attack slightly to reduce the cost of your next defensive use of MP by 600.

    • Darkside trait revised. It now instead increases Attack Speed by 10% and Movement Speed by 5% for 6 seconds per MP spender. Multiple instances may exist simultaneously, to a maximum of 4 stacks' worth of additional Speed, but do not refresh one another. Darkside gauge UI rehauled. (Yes, you can go fast now. Yes, this will mean potency changes across the board.)
    • New trait added, Blood for Blood - Your healing done is increased in equal portion to your missing health. Damage to be taken over time counts as if you had already taken that damage. (Can drop lower for bigger self-heals. Synergizes well with Living Dead.)

    • Delirium made more distinct from Inner Release. It instead now, for 10 seconds, freezes the timers of existing and future applications of Darkside and Blood Weapon or Blood Price while increasing your spells' and weaponskills' MP and Blood generated by 50%.
    • Blood Weapon again lasts a set duration, 12 seconds, rather than for 5 hits. It therefore marks a burst window (since you want small GCDs via Darkside over that time, rather than merely a 1-off resource-generator CD (one free MP and Blood spender each).

    • Shadowbringer now costs 3k MP in itself. Salt and Darkness is now a Dark Arts action, thereby costing 3k MP. This adds 3 weave spaces, reducing our maximal condensed oGCD load from 16 to 13, giving enough room for all our class defensives.
    • In compensation for the added MP costs above, we generate roughly that much more MP (5600 more MP generated per minute). Carve and Spit now generates 600 MP and deals 210 potency for each of its 3 strikes (1200 more MP/min), Blood Price has been returned and can be cast on others, and the remainder is handled by Syphon Strike, Stalwart Soul, and Blood Weapon's MP per hit.
    • All in all, this will move 3 casts per 2 minutes from our most overcrowded sections to our more barren sections. We remain bursty, especially with Darkside creating mini-burst windows, but it's less concentrated into just our 2-minute windows.

    • [Less important] Quietus and Abyssal Drain swap places, since Quietus (a sending off of one's spirit) and Carve and Spit both have a more soul-carving/splitting/scattering element and Abyssal Drain and Bloodspiller both have a, well, bloodier aspect.
    • [Less important] Certain actions now have the Deathblow additional effect, causing them to deal up to triple damage if they would thereby finish off a target (if target HP is ≤ twice the attack's damage, they die instantly).
    • Blood costs reduced to 40.

    • Blood Price readded with some further defensive and situational offensive implications. Oblation (revised) is now a Dark Arts extension of Blood Price. TBD: Blood Weapon and Blood Price cannot exist simultaneously and will steal each others' duration if used atop one another.
    • Shadowskin returned, though with new functionality (excels against small hits via flat damage reduction) and the ability to be placed on others after a level 56 trait. The Blackest Night is now a Dark Arts extension of Shadowskin.
    • Dark Mind now also reduces physical damage taken by 10%. Dark Arts: Mind Break - instead decreases nearby enemies' magical damage dealt by 20% and all further damage by 30% of your Defense. (Uses the old Tar Pit animation.) [TBD]

    • Living Shadow, Blood Weapon, and Blood Price can be much more flexibly timed, functioning more alike to a stance than mere rigid CDs, draining X seconds of charge skill for every second active. They must be at least 40% charged to be used and cannot be toggled off until having lasted for at least 40% of their maximum duration. They're therefore flexible, but not easily cheesed.
    • Living Shadow no longer costs Blood. Maximum charge time increased to 180 seconds. Maximum duration reduced to 18 seconds (drains 9 seconds charge per second of use). Potency increased. If toggled off, Living Shadow will end after its next attack.
      WIP. This is largely just basic future-proofing for doing other cool things with Living Shadow by level 100.

    Works in Progress:
    • Obvious potency change requirements are obvious.
    • May avoid using DA on defensives, instead keeping the higher button count of non-combo-ed defensive actions.
    • May remove defensive spenders' refund mechanism and instead rely only on the opposite (attacks increasingly making defensives free).
    • Still need the specifics of each DA action.
    • Need to ensure that there's enough counterplay to Darkside to not make it overly burn-then-bored.
    • Still figuring out what exactly I want to do with Blood Price and Dark Mind.
    • Not sure what cool Living Shadow things to save for 100 vs. give earlier.
    • May keep TBN separate, and just allow one to sacrifice the remaining barrier for some effect (without refund mechanism), or make it just a direct upgrade to Shadowskin that uniquely shortens its CD with damage nullified.

    Tl;dr:
    • Moved 3 oGCDs casts from the 2-minute burst window to the space between 2-minute burst windows, making the barren parts less dull and the crowded parts less claustrophobic. This was done via attaching MP costs to Salt and Darkness and Shadowbringer and increasing MP generation in compensation.
    • Changed us from having 2 MP spenders that require 2 discrete buttons to ~16 MP spenders that require just 1 discrete button via a Continuation-like version of Dark Arts.
    • Replaced Darkside with a short but potent 10% Attack Speed boost after spending MP, allowing us to reach some enjoyably hectic speeds. This will reduce DRK to single-weaving at 3+ stacks, however, and caps at 4 stacks (1.5s GCD), but space has been made for that and defensive Dark Arts uses don't need to be especially responsive.
    • Shadowskin returned as an on-demand mitigation tool. Blood Price returned as a resource+mitigation tool. DRK effectively gets 4 extra --though competing or at-offensive-cost-- defensive actions without needing a single extra button for them (just hit that same button again to spend 3k MP for a related follow-up effect to Shadowskin, Shadow Wall, Dark Mind, or Blood Price).
    (2)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-19-2023 at 10:41 AM.

  7. #4097
    Player
    Mecia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Posts
    363
    Character
    O'ssu Mecia
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Yeah i like the oGCD spam because at least im under the illusion im doing something more involved, unlike the other 3.
    (0)

  8. #4098
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
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    1,118
    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecia View Post
    Yeah i like the oGCD spam because at least im under the illusion im doing something more involved, unlike the other 3.
    I'm not even under the illusion of doing something after the oGCD spam, and during the spam I feel like I'm doing too much.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  9. #4099
    Player
    DRKoftheAzure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Gridania and Ul'dah (because Ishgard not allowed to be starting city-state :c)
    Posts
    1,118
    Character
    Strea Leonhart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    snip
    So what is YOUR suggestion for handling the button bloat caused by the many oGCDs Dark Knight has then? Because I have not seen compelling argument to keep the bloat in the slightest, and every argument that is against what I have suggested that I have seen does not even address the button bloat. Because everyone else is more worried about adding more traits that do not fix the overall issues with Dark Knight as of right now, than actually fixing the issues with Dark Knight, and that is bloated opener, a boring filler rotation and with Dawntrail, even more button bloat that causes the already bloated opener more bloated, and everyone else would seem to be perfectly fine with it until people drop it because the oGCD spam causes clipping issues with the GCD, and everyone would want the GCDs that currently exist into oGCDs Dark Knight because they want the highest APM imaginable and think High APM is also Dark Knight's identity.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by ArianeEwah View Post
    Making things brain dead doesn't solve problems.

  10. #4100
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,825
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure View Post
    So what is YOUR suggestion for handling the button bloat caused by the many oGCDs Dark Knight has then?
    <snip>
    even more button bloat that causes the already bloated opener more bloated, and everyone else would seem to be perfectly fine with it until people drop it because the oGCD spam causes clipping issues with the GCD
    There is little consensus that DRK is particularly button-bloated. It is the fewest buttons among the tanks. And "solving" that is as simple as in some way wrapping the effective total damage nullification Oblation into either TBN or Dark Mind (changed to be castable on others, perhaps by upgrading to that new "Oblation" form).

    Or, as in the post directly above, by trimming the bloat from the Tank Role Actions. We do not need have Rampart siphon power away from our own native tools; we could instead just have a 2nd charge and a lower recast time on our core 60-90s defensives. We do not need separate buttons for Low Blow and Interject. We do not need Shirk. We would not even need our various names for "Tank Stance" if we merely buffed Provoke.



    It's also not what makes our opener bloated. Salt and Darkness is not a different button from Salted Earth. The second cast of Shadowbringer is not a different cast from the first. Those 4 edges are not separate buttons. That's a matter of density/timing of casts. On which note...

    For the... fifth(?) time now.

    You take casts from where the density of casts is too much... and instead put it anywhere the density of casts is too little.

    Attaching a MP cost to Shadowbringer and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back 2 weave spaces. And it gives us 2 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

    Attaching a MP cost to Salt and Darkness and increasing our MP generation by 2k/min gives our opener back 3 weave spaces. And it gives us 1.33 more Edges between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

    Attaching a MP cost to Carve and Spit / Abyssal Drain and increasing MP generation by 3k MP/min already gives our 2-minute burst back a weave space. And it gives us another Edge between each of our 2-minute bursts instead of us half-forgetting it exists during those lulls.

    These each makes zero change to the job's APM. That APM is merely moved from where "There's too much!" to where "There's not enough!"

    It is that simple.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-19-2023 at 11:16 AM. Reason: typo

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