Dark Knight Megathread

[Crater]

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

This really isn't true. Throwing a hissyfit and calling simple mathematics a "crock of shit" doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, simple mathematics.

The average DF-quality dungeon run is basically divided into three sets of two trash pulls; 90s and 120s skills can be used on one pull or the other, 60s skills can be used once per pull.

Across both pulls, excluding skills that are the same on each tank, you tend to get:

6 uses of TBN (3 per pull), for a total of roughly 135,000 HP of mitigation in current gear.
4 uses of HoC (2 per pull), for a total of 60,000 HP of healing and roughly 40,000 HP of mitigation.
4 uses of Holy Sheltron (2 per pull), for a total of roughly 66500 HP of healing and roughly 50,000 HP of mitigation.

2 uses of Abyssal Drain, for at least 50,000 HP of healing, possibly more depending on how many enemies are in each pull.
3 uses of Aurora, for for about 65,000 HP of healing.
16 spell GCDs with a healing component, for about 110,000 HP of healing.

3 uses of Oblation, which tends to total up to about 15,000 HP of mitigation.
1 use of Camouflage, which tends to offer about 20,000 HP of mitigation.


That's 200,000 HP of combined healing and mitigation on DRK, 185,000 HP of combined healing and mitigation on GNB, and 226,500 HP of combined healing and mitigation on PLD.

Now obviously there's some variation here based on how fast the group is going, and we are talking about casual DF runs so fluctuations are expected. If you go a little faster DRK is disadvantaged because you might only get 4 TBNs to 4 HoCs/HSheltrons, but if you go a little faster than that it swings right back around and you can get 4 TBNs to 2 HoCs and 3 HSheltrons; if you go a little slower then GNB can start to pull ahead by squeezing a second use of Camouflage into the second pull. At some timings PLD will be able to get 5 uses of Holy Sheltron into a 2-pull interval, etc.

But in general, that's all nitpicking: This "WIDE margin" you claim exists between DRK and the other tanks is a delusion. DRK and GNB are on pretty equal footing as far as dungeons are concerned, both in terms of DPS and in survivability; PLD is marginally ahead of both in terms of survivability, and behind by a similar amount in terms of DPS.

[ItsUrBoi]

No, DRK is not comparable to GNB or PLD in dungeons. It has one mitigation tool that mitigates nothing most pulls (Dark Mind), it has no equivalent to the regens from Aurora or Holy Shelltron, it has no equivalent to HoC's burst heal, it has no equivalent to the constant healing potency of PLD's attack spells. And do not insult me or anybody else here by bringing up TBN as a comparison, when you know that's a crock of shit. DRK has no healing comparison to GNB or PLD, all it has is a single HP barrier that's easily shreded through, and a now useable (when it once wasn't) invuln. DRK is the worst of the tanks in dungeon pulls, by a WIDE margin.

I think this is also heavily overestimated. I mean the topic with DRK in dungeons. I run expert roulettes with it and have never had any problems. The Aurora self healing you get is basically a 200 potency heal every 3 seconds. This is not better than TBN. Realistically all it does is it gives you roughly the same amount of HP back over time rather than instantly shielding you for that amount. I am not making a point for TBN being good in dungeons, but Aurora being good? Thats far from reality too. The PLD self healing is also far from reality and was needed and introduced specifically because of this. It is not per target healing like WAR's and rotationally doing the Requiescot rotation gives you as much HP as roughly 2 TBNs. In 60 seconds. I think the more logical argument would be that GNB has a damage reduction tool that works besides the standard kit, while DRK's Dark Mind does not. But you have Oblation as a 10%. And in all honesty, if you use 2 small damage reductions per all the mobs between any two bosses, like rampart and oblation with tbns in between whenever, and then shadow wall with oblation with tbns again, you will be fine with any healer.
The reason I was advokating for Dark Mind to move to Oblation is because there are too many buttons that need pressing, the skills kind of try to fit a similar role ( one fails for being too weak), and it would make space for some healing ability, even if weak to help slightly with self recovery from non existent to being the worst, but there.

[The_User]

Healer love me because my TBN burst in 3s or even less in a big pull. It make healing very easily.


Math and theory say I'm as good as gnb and pld so it is impossible that any DRK could struggling in reality.

It's not like survive dungeon big pull have anything similar to a ROPE PULL.

[The_User]

Instead of using theory why don't you guy get in the dungeon and test how much each attack of the enemy reduce your hp with no mitigation first?

[Derio]

The problem is mitigation vs self healing is huge in dungeons. If you can burst heal yourself and save the healer a GCD or two then that is a dps gain for the party. All tanks have mitigation tools.

You can ask any dungeon healer and they would take a WAR over a DRK in any dungeon setting.

TBN is very strong however the problem occurs after TBN breaks. This could easily be solved if abyssal drain costed mp or was on a charge system. Or if simply gauge spending abilites restored a portion of hp.

I have faith this will be addressed in 6.25

Pretty sure devs are looking at 4 man content balance just enough to where it doesnt affect the 8 man balance whether its through lost actions or general job changes.

[RyuDragnier]

If Abyssal Drain was every 30s and was a 300-400 potency heal per target hit, DRK's dungeon pull problems would easily be addressed without it really effecting their raid fight capabilities. And before somebody says "But wouldn't Carve and Spit have to be reduced to 30s as well?", I remind you that ending a DNC's dance changes the GCD to 1.5s until the next move. They could pull something similar with Abyssal Drain and Carve and Spit where CaS is the normal 60s CD while AD changes it to 30s CD.

[ItsUrBoi]

What you mentioned above me is a change I also mentioned before, both Carve and spit and Abyssal Drain have their cooldown halfed, while also having MP and damage halfed.

[baklava151]

If they gave DRK Scourge back or some DoT, I was brainstorming ways to make it a bit more interesting. One was giving a chance to restore some MP every tick, or since you all are talking about AD/CnS, maybe cutting 5-10 seconds off their CD.

[The_User]

TBN is very strong? How strong it is really?



Tank's HP=85000. TBN=25% of max hp barrier=21250


HOC= -15% 8s & extra -15% 4s & if GNB's 900 potency heal is around 15% of their max hp then it would heal around 12750



Assuming a single hit tank buster is designed to KO a tank with no mitigation then it would deal a damage no less than tank's total HP


TBN would leave you with 21250 HP


HOC would leave you with [tank buster damage 85000 - 2 layers of 15% mitigation=first layer>72250>second layer>61412 vs tank hp 85000=23587+heal 12750=]36337 HP.



[If GNB's 900 potency heal is equaling to 24-25% of their hp instead then it would be 23587+21250=44837]



Care to be a guinea pig and test it for us Hayk Farsight? Scuffed Guts? this thread is in dire need of a screen shot and real evidence.

[ItsUrBoi]

Comparing cooldown to cooldown is somewhat missleading. If you are on GNB and use the 30% mitigation you got, and do the same on DRK and throw Oblation in as well, the numbers tip in DRK's favour.
No one here was trying to say that TBN is better than the new defensive cooldowns, but rather that DRK's whole kit gives you mitigation which is equally as good as the other tanks, if not slightly better, on a shorter cooldown.
Keyword: when you combine abilities. Not when you compare skill to skill, because then what is PLD's equivalent of Dark Mind and Oblation? What is GNB equivalent of those 2? Those are also fair points.