Dark Knight Megathread

[baklava151]

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it off occasionally.

To my original point though, I think it could be interesting to make Darkside something that increases your damage for a short amount of time and you have to figure out how to best take advantage of it. Can't say what it would look like exactly or if it would necessarily be better than just keeping Darkside as a maintenance buff but it'd be an option.

[baklava151]

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.

I can see this working assuming the MP restore combo is weaker than the Souleater combo. It might also require messing with Blood Weapon, MP costs, MP generation, how much Darkside you get from Edge of Shadow, etc... to make it all work but I'd imagine it's doable.

[shao32]

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it off occasionally.

To my original point though, I think it could be interesting to make Darkside something that increases your damage for a short amount of time and you have to figure out how to best take advantage of it. Can't say what it would look like exactly or if it would necessarily be better than just keeping Darkside as a maintenance buff but it'd be an option.

I'ts bcs in those days there was external MP generation sources like Mage ballad from Bards and i think MCH had something similar, at least i think it use to have it on SB and BLM could donate some MP too, and the description apply on your natual MP generation wich was complety stoped and you could only generate MP from skills and several buffs of your own kit to counter the MP drain you have on HW, it was removed on SB and only prevent you from generate MP from natural tics when activated.

[Lyth]

...

Good thing this isn't the SAM subforum.

Absolutely none of the changes that you're suggesting mandate a rework. One of them isn't a job change at all - there are multiple gish jobs at this point that utilize both Weaponskills and Spells, and unifying that system against the existing stats is a Battle System change. Most of the remainder fall under the category of nice, but not really essential. Dark Mind is pretty powerful because it's on a 60s recast compared to the like of Camo and Thrill's 90s. Would you give up the recast advantage in order for the action to be more versatile? I think the answer depends on what kind of a player you are. If you're only doing dungeon content on DRK, perhaps you might look enviously at an action like Camo. If you're doing raid content as well, you might have a more balanced viewpoint on it.

From the sounds of it, you want a rework but you don't know what it's for. And that's a dangerous mindset to get into, as history has shown. As I suggested earlier, the goal right now should be looking at how expansion abilities can enrich DRK's gameplay, rather than finding ways of scuppering the job when it's finally in a half-decent place. And I think one of the most useful things to address is the fact that this job is currently very light in the GCD department.

[Runeslayer]

Good thing this isn't the SAM subforum.

Absolutely none of the changes that you're suggesting mandate a rework. One of them isn't a job change at all - there are multiple gish jobs at this point that utilize both Weaponskills and Spells, and unifying that system against the existing stats is a Battle System change. Most of the remainder fall under the category of nice, but not really essential. Dark Mind is pretty powerful because it's on a 60s recast compared to the like of Camo and Thrill's 90s. Would you give up the recast advantage in order for the action to be more versatile? I think the answer depends on what kind of a player you are. If you're only doing dungeon content on DRK, perhaps you might look enviously at an action like Camo. If you're doing raid content as well, you might have a more balanced viewpoint on it.

From the sounds of it, you want a rework but you don't know what it's for. And that's a dangerous mindset to get into, as history has shown. As I suggested earlier, the goal right now should be looking at how expansion abilities can enrich DRK's gameplay, rather than finding ways of scuppering the job when it's finally in a half-decent place. And I think one of the most useful things to address is the fact that this job is currently very light in the GCD department.

Again you're misunderstanding and misconstruing what it is I'm advocating for. Because everyone around is clamoring for a rework, you're dumping what I want into the same category. What I want is the annoyances and nitpicks of the job reigned in BEFORE we can start talking about the direction DRK should go in, tying up loose ends. Are they nice changes? Yes, that's exactly the point. On Dark mind, just because the raiding scene finds more use of it does not mean that there isn't an issue with how it interacts with the game-- that being there's still no indication that an attack does physical or magical damage; if there is, it's POORLY communicated. You need alternative methods for something the game should be telling it's players. Don't want it changed? Fine, but at least do that much so it's more consistent in how it's used in ALL content.

Nothing else I have suggested should be contentious in the slightest, in fact I would be surprised if you take issue with any of it. But by all means, brush it with a fine comb.

[Lyth]

I know for a fact that there are people that are not 'happy' with where DRK is right now. Is it better than it used to be? Gods yes, but these are mere /necessary/ steps that frankly it's insulting it took so long to add to the class, and there are still very VERY basic changes it should receive in order to be set back to zero in serviceability.

This is before even addressing that DRK right now to many players is just that: serviceable. It does its job well enough, it has a place, it hits high rankings, but gods it's like eating oatmeal by itself. It'll keep you fed, but there's no spice and hardly any flavor.

There's nothing that particularly stands out about the job, it's a middle of the road tank that can't decide what it wants to be so it's just a worse everyone at once with little cohesion. I can't stress enough how important cohesion and job feel is, because if it wasn't SAM players wouldn't be so pissed about Kaiten.

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

[Shurrikhan]

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

This kind of feels like being ticked that a customer didn't well enough specify how they wanted their food itself prepared when they've asked merely that it be served on a plate...

All that's ultimately been said so far is that little differences like Dark Mind or Living Dead are not sufficient to form an identity. That doesn't seem particularly controversial. And while I'd agree with you that those small differences are better than none, and so I wouldn't take from their insufficiency that they are disposable, nothing in Rune's posts indicates that they wish only to remove those insufficient bits and stop there; they've made pretty clear that removal would only be done as/if part of a larger cohesive rework. That's very distant from, say, the Stormblood era complaints, each complete in themselves, about "DA spam" or a "lackluster capstone CD" in Delirium.

Over the last few pages, what gameplay loops and considerations would feel most appropriate to or synergetic with DRK's themes has already been in debate. You've suggested a Reaper-esque second combo implementation. Others have suggested a more Huton/Surging-esque second combo. Arch has suggested a many-spender-option Darkside state option in place of a second combo. Others have focused on altogether different areas. Marking a tentative line for how far one feels we ought to go before we can remotely pat ourselves on the back does not make one suddenly responsible for coming up with each concrete implementation in that direction. This all still in flux; let it breathe. When Rune has some spitball implementations for us, I'm sure she'll post them and we can then discuss them as a thread as we've done for those before.

Gotcha, I misinterpreted "MP refreshing statuses have no effect" as you couldn't regen MP at all so I thought maybe you had to flip it [Darkside] off occasionally.

I think that was true, actually, at least while in combat? If you got an old Ewer card back then while in Darkside (much like a BLM in Astral Fire), it not only wouldn't tick, but it'd count you as immune to receiving the effect altogether, iirc. It's been a long time, though.

[Archwizard]

I feel like the idea of Darkside as a "disable MP recovery for a substantial boost in damage" effect has been coopted by PLD's Requiescat, in a certain sense, due to how the latter consumes large amounts of MP all at once for a damage burst.
Obviously the mechanics are very different, but the effect on gameplay is generally similar in an environment where external sources of MP regeneration have been removed anyway.

Not that I've seen anyone suggest a return to it in so many words, of course.

I think that was true, actually, at least while in combat? If you got an old Ewer card back then while in Darkside (much like a BLM in Astral Fire), it not only wouldn't tick, but it'd count you as immune to receiving the effect altogether, iirc. It's been a long time, though.

I distinctly remember foolishly Manashifting onto a DRK as a baby BLM who didn't yet understand any other job because I saw their MP had been exhausted, only for them to be Immune to it. Good times.

[Runeslayer]

I think that if you're going to take issue with a job's core gameplay loop, then you are obliged to be specific in your feedback. Turning Dark Mind into Rampart isn't going to put 'spice' into DRK. Reducing the acquisition level of Dark Missionary isn't going to give it a defining identity. The reason why complaints like yours are an actual problem is that if the dev team actually decides that the job needs to be reworked but have no useful player feedback on how to do so, we could end up in an even worse state than Stormblood. It's like playing roulette with the job. If you don't know what you want for dinner, stick with the set menu.

Alright, since you're clearly not getting it I'll *try* and spell it out clearly one last time. You continuously think my suggestions are in in regards to reworking DRK, but this is untrue. These are changes I think dark knight should receive before I speak AT ALL about what I'd like to see reworked. Why? Because when that discussion does come up, it's free of the remaining jank DRK currently has, we can set it aside as non factors. What I suggested are supposed to be non-contentious nitpicks of the job that pretty much everyone can get behind; dark mind being the only thing that people will be split on, but I feel there is an alternative with letting it be powerful, unique, and more consistent than it's current iteration after some discussion and brainstorming-- again, I am saving rework discussion for when I actually have ideas, for now I would LIKE to at least have the game inform me what is and isn't magic damage so I'm not throwing caution to the wind on whether or not Dark mind will be effective or useless.

All I KNOW right now is I am not satisfied with the way DRK is now, the core rotation doesn't feel great, I don't feel rewarded for playing 'correctly', and I'm not very motivated to optimize my rotation or get better by the classes own merit. Judging by the likes and lack of rebuttal from that post of mine, it seems it's quite a cold take.

[Lyth]

...

You said it yourself. You're unable to articulate what exactly it is that you dislike about the job's gameplay loop. And that's perfectly fine. But if most of the feedback we're providing is 'I don't like this job', then you can't really complain when the devs start ripping out core job features to try to make people happy. Maybe they decide that you don't enjoy the oGCDs, and they just remove Edge and Flood, and turn Darkside into a Storm's Eye combo. And then you come back in complaining about how the job 'feels bad' to play and is constantly being simplified. I don't want to see that happen here.