Dark Knight Megathread

[Kalaam]

The removal of delirium as a finisher and Power Slash for ennmity really stripped DRK in GCD.
Could have just kept Power Slash as the damage combo and soul eater for healing.

[Lyth]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line. Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

[baklava151]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example). I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

I can see that happening. I'd rather it not and they do more with Darkside instead but it wouldn't surprise me.

The difficulty with designing gauge spenders in general is that you can really only have one on-demand gauge spender per gauge (with a single target and AoE variant). The instant that you add an additional one, whichever action is mathematically better gets used exclusively. The only way around this is to have a cooldown timer attached (i.e. LS is a more valuable use of Blood than Bloodspiller when the cooldown is up). So you can't really have a second combo that is gated by MP or Blood.

I think there are a few ways to tackle that other than CDs. Looking at SAM back in ShB, iirc Seigan was better than Shinten for its Kenki cost, but had to be procced off Third Eye first. On DRK I think you could have something work where you have a combo finisher that costs MP but adds to the Darkside timer, and it wouldn't conflict with Edge of Shadow assuming Edge is also changed to not give Darkside.

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I could possibly get on board with this

[RyuDragnier]

What you could do instead is to make use of the Dark Arts gauge. You can still preserve the current TBN effect as it is (i.e. TBN breaking gives you a buff that makes your next Edge/Flood free). All you would need to do is make it such that Edge/Flood grants you Dark Arts, and have Dark Arts be the consumed to perform your enhanced combo. In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

[Kalaam]

Dark Art could be a buff you activate with the ability Dark Arts, that had a cost and CD (say 3K MP, 20 or 40s CD) but if you break TBN you can get the buff "for free"

[Shurrikhan]

I think we're more likely to see Darkside just turn into a vestigial trait down the line.

It's vestigial already. How many of us even bother to include our Darkside timer visibly in our UI?

Alternatively, they could just have your Edge/Flood hits raise the timer on your next LS duration up from 0 to some cap, such that you're required to land a certain number of Edge strikes over 2 minutes to maximize its value.

I'm all for added flexibility, but that'd require that this stands in place of LS's full-length, rigid cooldown.

In short, the answer on how to implement a second combo is Soul Reaver.

I'm not necessarily a fan of just swapping over to a carbon copied mechanic of a different job.

Yes, there's scarcely any way to handle a second combo that hasn't been done before (CDed spender, DoT, self-buff, or unlocked via 2-charge spender), but what makes Reaper particularly apt save for just being the other "edgy" one?

Let's not assume that copying a different job would necessarily produce a better DRK, or even that difference from the existing or its earlier precedents necessarily produces improvement. What specifically do we want from this second combo producible by bankable oGCD spenders? Why is it the best idea ("the answer"), rather than just... a possible option?

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

This, though, should not be an issue. We shouldn't be using TBN where it won't break, and any break gives Edge. The penalty for failure, then, is slightly increased (not that we couldn't also compensate for that somewhat, especially as warranted by the deepened penalty), but proper performance would still cost one nothing so long as we just let the resulting free Edge/Flood buff (call it "Black Blade" or whatnot) stack or give it some further bonus for being spent earlier (such that we wouldn't want to stack it anyways).

[Lyth]

The problem with this is that it forces the DRK to use TBN on cooldown if they want their big DPS. Perhaps instead make it so something else gives the DA instead, something on a longer timer and isn't a defensive cooldown.

The Dark Arts gauge isn't actually necessary. It's just there is to preserve the mechanic terminology for historic reasons. You could just as easily have TBN grant a free Edge/Flood without calling it Dark Arts and creating a gauge for it.

What I'm suggesting is that we leave the TBN proc as it is, except without calling it Dark Arts. Instead, have Edge or Flood generate one stack of Dark Arts on use (regardless of whether its a free cast or not), and have Shadowbringers generate two stacks. Each step of your enhanced combo consumes a Dark Arts stack, in exchange for being higher potency and a bit of HP/MP/blood depending on the step.

...

There are only so many ways that you can implement combo systems. The most common system by far is to have a maintenance buff/debuff, and both of those approaches exist on WAR/PLD respectively, as well as on NIN/DRG. I also think that if you want to introduce a combo this late in job progression it needs to be fairly hard hitting so that it feels like an improvement. I think RPR's take on the system is an incredibly good match because it effectively combos off your oGCD creating a really nice flow, and because it fits DRK's overall resource management theme while actually making use of thee Dark Arts gauge. It doesn't really matter if we've seen something similar on another role before, as there's a ton of back and forth idea sharing between tanks and melee anyways.

[Archwizard]

I think that the idea of consuming 'Darkside time' as a resource is an interesting idea in theory, but in general we've seen more and more jobs move away from maintenance mechanics with each expansion (the Blood of the Dragon buff being the most recent example).

They're generally streamlined (BotD or Enochian) or replaced (Greased Lighting -> Nadi gauge), yes, but rarely removed wholesale without substitution. If they remove the "Darkside Time" element from DRK, it would likely be to make room for some new element, and both Living Shadow and Blood Gauge come extremely late in the leveling process to be considered sufficient for such purposes on their own, especially compared to every other tank getting some gauge or resource management between 30-35.

We just got over a period where it was awful to play DRK for about 40-odd levels. No active mitigation, no AoE combo, no healing till the late-50s...

They could theoretically reduce the level of Blood Gauge to that range, but combining that with the removal of Darkside would just exacerbate the "DRK = diet WAR" discussion.

That being said, DRK is also the only tank to use MP as a resource at such a low level, so it could be reasonable to consider our 30-ish gauge to be the MP bar, which would still mean room for some active element from MP management which Darkside attempts to facilitate -- beyond oGCDs for oGCDs' sake.

The removal of delirium as a finisher and Power Slash for ennmity really stripped DRK in GCD.
Could have just kept Power Slash as the damage combo and soul eater for healing.

Except that a choice between damage vs healing will always lead to the tank leaning on damage and expecting the healer to pick up the healing. Just look at PLD with Clemency.

[Keagian]

While the ideas that are shared are interesting in their own right, down the line they'll become a pain in the ass, wither its gauge management, stocking dark arts, or having to juggle buffs.

The biggest issue with current DRK aside from its lack of sustain, is its good moves being on a long ass CD. We don't get to use them until every 1 min or 1 min 30s and we are tied to a 2 min burst of oGCD fuckery. Where as GNB has a burst every 30s and a full burst every 1 min. PLD has a rotation that is straight forward and both their Physical and Magic phases are at least woven to be a complement of each other as they wait their physical or magical CD to come back up, while being in either phase. WAR is pretty much on a 1 min burst and has different combo paths. Meanwhile DRK, our CD are all over the place, we have 60s CD, a 90s one and 120s CD and a move that costs 3000mp that might not even line up with burst windows depending on how were spending that MP. They also sometimes don't even line up properly while the other tanks don't have this issue.

Way to fix how fucking boring DRK's 123 combo feels is to lower its offensive CD's so were not trying to stay awake spamming 123. They should lean into DRK's oGCD buttons more and allow use to use our cool abilities more often. Allow DRK to use Shadowbringer every 30s and lower its damage to compensate for us being able to use it more often, maybe even lower it to 1 stock.

Likewise move Salted Earth CD to 60s, same with Living Shadow. Our most defining trait currently is being able to summon a shadow that fights with us, is on a 2min CD, making it feel boring and is only there to help us remember that we have a 2min burst window. We only get 18 sec of actual use out of it, so let us use it more often.

[Nosaji_]

They should lean into DRK's oGCD buttons more and allow use to use our cool abilities more often. Allow DRK to use Shadowbringer every 30s and lower its damage to compensate for us being able to use it more often, maybe even lower it to 1 stock.

Likewise move Salted Earth CD to 60s, same with Living Shadow. Our most defining trait currently is being able to summon a shadow that fights with us, is on a 2min CD, making it feel boring and is only there to help us remember that we have a 2min burst window. We only get 18 sec of actual use out of it, so let us use it more often.

I agree that DRK's OGCDs are completely backloaded and need to be spread out a bit more to make it more interesting, I don't think moving more things into the 1 minute window is the answer.
You'd just go from an awful 2 min burst to every delirium being miserable.

Salted Earth is 2 OGCDs, Living Shadow is 1 (although you use that before bloodspillers), Shadowbringer being 30 seconds would mean you have to use it there too- Add that to the two Plunges, CnS and Edge spam, you go from not being able to mitigate at 2 min burst to not being able to mitigate for like, 12~15 seconds of every minute- that's like... a quarter of the fight? that you can't do your job during. (I'm not very clever so correct me if I'm wrong)

They definitely need to do something with OGCDs though, I still don't like Salted Earth and I think they should just give it's puddle to Abyssal Drain and then put a DoT on CnS that does the same damage as you'd get from the full duration of the puddle. I know that Archwizard said that the devs don't like DoTs, but that's essentially what Salted Earth is anyway, as well as Living Shadow. They're just more annoying to use than regular DoTs.

I'd also say that if anything they need to make Shadowbringer LESS frequent and more impactful, it absolutely doesn't feel like a capstone ability as it is now- compare it to Primal Rend, Blade of Valor. They're both something different, Rend is an AoE gap closer. Valor is a full ranged combo, although Paladin already had a lot of ranged stuff and I haven't actually played it so I can't say a lot.

Oblation is oblation, 10% DR is not bad but it's not... good, either. I think merging it with Dark Mind might be the wrong answer but getting rid of it and buffing TBN somehow is probably a good idea.

I think a second combo finisher would vastly improve the downtime, I haven't put any thought into this so I'm sure there's glaring flaws in it, but something like replace Syphon Strike with Spinning Slash, and then bring back old Delirium or something as a finisher that gives MP, while keeping Souleater as the higher damage HP restoring finisher.
I am aware that it'd be likely people would just spam the fuck out of the MP combo to get more Edges for more damage or whatever, but I'm sure they could fuck around with potencies to make the MP finisher low enough that it's not worth spamming it over Souleater- although you'd still need to get Blood from Souleater so maybe that's not really a concern.

My intention is that you'd have to actually be careful with your MP spending and plan ahead with what combo you're going to do. MP finisher would probably need to restore more than 600mp though, since it's not the 2nd action in your only combo like Syphon Strike is rn.